major chord vs. maj7

[Low_Ryder]

So I am feeling a little uncertain about something here, not even sure quite what. But I've been learning some chord tones, and from what I understand the I and IV are maj7 and the V is a dom7. OK, I am fairly certain about what that means. It seems straight forward. However, I've always heard the I IV V progression mentioned, and I always understood it to be major chords. Guitarists I think play the G, C, and D major chords for example. But to me the maj7 sounds a little different than a major chord, so what's going on here? What's the theory behind this, as in why (and when, and how) choose major chords vs. maj7 chords.

I know that blues generally uses all dom7 chords in its I IV V progressions, because it just does. That's what it is. So is the I IV V progression that's all major just a variation that (apparently, to me anyway) breaks the rules of basic chord theory? Or does it still "follow the rules" just in ways that I am not clued in to yet?

 

[MonetBass]

You have to remember that adding the 7th to a chord is not necessarily implied. Dom7 (or just 7) is a minor 7th. So for a C7, that would be C-E-G-Bb. A maj7 would be a half step up, or the 7th that would occur in a major scale. So for Cmaj7, that would be C-E-G-B.

Learning the major and all three flavors of minor scales, in addition to chord progressions and how each note functions within those, would go a long way in understanding this concept. On this site - musictheory.net - Lessons - go through the Chords section, particularly the 7th chords. The Scales and Key Signatures is also a good reference.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Dirt simple songs usually just use the triad, i.e. a three note chord like the plain ole C or F or G. As we get a little more into our music we normally make the five chord (G) into a dominant seven or G7. Your question asks why? Adding the b7 note adds to the tension the five chord has and it is now the dominant seven chord and wants to resolve to the tonic C chord RIGHT NOW. Most of the time we just do it because we think that is what is done.

The C or Cmaj7 - making the C into a Cmaj7 chord adds flavor, notice the 7 is a natural 7 not a b7. That's why it is called a major seven. As we move into fancier songs we let the correct 7 come into what we are doing. Spend some time with building chords using the stacking of 3rds method and I think which ones get a natural 7 and which get a flatted 7 will become clear. In a nut shell here is how it goes;

Two octaves of the C scale = C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C To find the chords made from the C major scale we stack the C major scale in 3rds........ every other note
C is a three note triad so we use the C, E & G notes and get a C chord.
Cmaj7 is a four note chord so we use the C, E, G and B notes and this makes a Cmaj7 chord.

Now lets take the next note in the C major scale, the D, and make some chords for it. The D triad would have the D, F and A notes and be called a Dm chord. Whoa - Dm (D minor) how did that happen? Good question.

But lets first take our D chord out to a four note chord and add the 7th note. OK we have D, F, A now add the C note. Is that major or minor? Lets see the D major scale is D, E, F#, G, A, B, C# Our chord has the D, F, A and C notes in it so the F# and the C# have been flatted and we "spell" this R-b3-5-b7, i.e. if the 3rd note has been flatted that automatically makes that chord a minor chord. Drum roll. Notice the seven has also been flatted. Yep most minor seven chords have a flatted 7 seven note.

For grins take the C major scale on out to find all the chords made from it. Use this to check yourself. Chords In The Key Of C No really do it yourself, I want you to see how the correct notes get into the chords when we stack the scale in 3rds.

One other thing you asked about:

......... OK, I am fairly certain about what that means. It seems straight forward. However, I've always heard the I IV V progression mentioned, and I always understood it to be major chords. Guitarists I think play the G, C, and D major chords for example.

Yes the I-IV-V chords in a major scale end up being major chords. Major chords are the structure chords that help move the verse along in the progression, the minor chords add flavor or color. That is why simple songs just include the structure or major chords. As we get fancy we bring in some color or minor chords into the mix. The vi chord is a neutral chord and works well adding some flavor. The vi chord is the relative minor chord of the scale and is a natural choice. Jazz will use the ii-V7-I progression, but, this is another story best left for later. For grins stack the Cm scale and see what happens.

Have fun.

You may find post # 7 in Help! Struggling to recognize I-V chord change | TalkBass.com helpful.

 

[Hahaha]

It might help to think of a I - IV - V as either using three voice chords or four voice chords. If you play basic triads (3 voice) then you simply have C (CEG) F (FAC) and G (GBD) as your major I - IV - V. These are your three diatonic major chords that occur naturally in the C scale. If you add the fourth voice, the seventh, You have two major seventh chords and one dominant seventh chord that occur naturally within the scale. You have Cmaj7 (CEGB) Fmaj7 (FACE) and G7 (GBDF). As you can see, these are all scale notes. They're all white notes on the piano. The C scale is white notes only. Diatonic means every note must occur naturally within the scale.

What you are probably finding confusing is that the two major 7 chords don't sound like the correct chords for pop, R & B, blues, etc. This is because these styles of music use what is called dominant harmony. That means that the I and IV chords are altered to dominant 7 chords. So you would have C7 (CEGBb), F7 (FACEb) and G7 (GBDF). The V chord is naturally dominant, but the I and IV chords have been altered to include non diationic notes (black keys): Bb and Eb. You now have three dominant chords in your I - IV - V progression.

I hope that's clear enough. Often when first learning theory it seems more complicated than it really is. Even simple concepts can seem complicated. If this isn't clear I'll try to elucidate the idea in another way to help you see the system.

Something to take note of: Often a dominant chord is referred to as a dominant 7 chord, as I have done above, but in fact the 7 is not a dominant seven, it's a minor seven in a dominant chord. Dominant refers to the quality of the chord (major 3rd and minor 7th) and not the seventh interval. Technically there is no dominant seven interval. Sevens are either major, minor or diminished, but not dominant.

 

[joebar]

the major 7th chord is a strong sounding chord-although beautiful, it carries strong implication. a minor7th chord is less strong and can be used more often in music than a maj7. I believe this is because the minor7 follows a pentatonic minor scale without exception and a maj7 has the 7 that isn't included in a pentatonic major.

dominants can be found everywhere; the beauty of them is that some are used for tension and release and some aren't. some function as V chords and some are non-functioning.
dominant chords lend themselves to so many different scale choices; one can easily utilise every note on the board with dominant chords.

 

[mambo4]

So is the I IV V progression that's all major just a variation that (apparently, to me anyway) breaks the rules of basic chord theory? Or does it still "follow the rules" just in ways that I am not clued in to yet?

It's all "legal" as long as your using the 7 notes from the key to build your chords.

any I-IV-V that is "all major", as in each chord is a major triads( like Cmaj Fmaj Gmaj) , breaks no "rules"*.
It is exactly what should be expected, when using triads in the key of the I chord.

You can also mix in 4 note chords without breaking the "rules"
Cmaj7 Fmaj Gmaj
Cmaj Fmaj G7
Cmaj7 Fmaj7 G7
Whatever sound you prefer.

Often a dominant chord is referred to as a dominant 7 chord, as I have done above, but in fact the 7 is not a dominant seven, it's a minor seven in a dominant chord. Dominant refers to the quality of the chord (major 3rd and minor 7th) and not the seventh interval.

That's just muddy enough to confuse a noob.

The interval is called a minor seven interval
but the chord (major triad + minor seven) is indeed called dominant seven chord.

*"rules" in quotes because of course theory is not "rules": it's simply names of patterns

 

[Groove Master]

So I am feeling a little uncertain about something here, not even sure quite what. But I've been learning some chord tones, and from what I understand the I and IV are maj7 and the V is a dom7. OK, I am fairly certain about what that means. It seems straight forward. However, I've always heard the I IV V progression mentioned, and I always understood it to be major chords. Guitarists I think play the G, C, and D major chords for example. But to me the maj7 sounds a little different than a major chord, so what's going on here? What's the theory behind this, as in why (and when, and how) choose major chords vs. maj7 chords.

I know that blues generally uses all dom7 chords in its I IV V progressions, because it just does. That's what it is. So is the I IV V progression that's all major just a variation that (apparently, to me anyway) breaks the rules of basic chord theory? Or does it still "follow the rules" just in ways that I am not clued in to yet?

A major chord is a very plain sound with only 3 pitches. It associated to the majority of Pop music chords.

The Major 7 sound is a more sophisticated sound with 4 pitches very often associated with Jazz music or a more sophisticated harmony.

It is very useful to understand some theory rules here because when the root of the major chord is the melody, it is dissonant to use a major 7 chord because of the clash between the root and the Major 7. Try it you'll hear it better then words ;-)
But if the melody IS the Major 7, then Maj7 chord is prefered because it fits like a glove. If the root is in the melody, it is also useful to enhance the triad with a major 6 "à la Beatles" and play a major 6 chord.

These are the principal rules.

Hope this helps,

GM

 

[Low_Ryder]

Thanks for all the info people! I'll probably post some more follow up questions when I have a chance.

 

[SnL]

Dirt simple songs usually just use the triad, i.e. a three note chord like the plain ole C or F or G. As we get a little more into our music we normally make the five chord (G) into a dominant seven or G7. Your question asks why? Adding the b7 note adds to the tension the five chord has and it is now the dominant seven chord and wants to resolve to the tonic C chord RIGHT NOW. Most of the time we just do it because we think that is what is done.

The C or Cmaj7 - making the C into a Cmaj7 chord adds flavor, notice the 7 is a natural 7 not a b7. That's why it is called a major seven. As we move into fancier songs we let the correct 7 come into what we are doing. Spend some time with building chords using the stacking of 3rds method and I think which ones get a natural 7 and which get a flatted 7 will become clear. In a nut shell here is how it goes;

Two octaves of the C scale = C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C To find the chords made from the C major scale we stack the C major scale in 3rds........ every other note
C is a three note triad so we use the C, E & G notes and get a C chord.
Cmaj7 is a four note chord so we use the C, E, G and B notes and this makes a Cmaj7 chord.

Now lets take the next note in the C major scale, the D, and make some chords for it. The D triad would have the D, F and A notes and be called a Dm chord. Whoa - Dm (D minor) how did that happen? Good question.

But lets first take our D chord out to a four note chord and add the 7th note. OK we have D, F, A now add the C note. Is that major or minor? Lets see the D major scale is D, E, F#, G, A, B, C# Our chord has the D, F, A and C notes in it so the F# and the C# have been flatted and we "spell" this R-b3-5-b7, i.e. if the 3rd note has been flatted that automatically makes that chord a minor chord. Drum roll. Notice the seven has also been flatted. Yep most minor seven chords have a flatted 7 seven note.

For grins take the C major scale on out to find all the chords made from it. Use this to check yourself. Chords In The Key Of C No really do it yourself, I want you to see how the correct notes get into the chords when we stack the scale in 3rds.

One other thing you asked about:

Yes the I-IV-V chords in a major scale end up being major chords. Major chords are the structure chords that help move the verse along in the progression, the minor chords add flavor or color. That is why simple songs just include the structure or major chords. As we get fancy we bring in some color or minor chords into the mix. The vi chord is a neutral chord and works well adding some flavor. The vi chord is the relative minor chord of the scale and is a natural choice. Jazz will use the ii-V7-I progression, but, this is another story best left for later. For grins stack the Cm scale and see what happens.

Have fun.

You may find post # 7 in Help! Struggling to recognize I-V chord change | TalkBass.com helpful.

This is a great post but feel like I'm going have to read it a BUNCH more times. I somehow taught myself how to play notes that fit but I want...I NEED... to know why. I feel like I can identify the puzzle pieces but don't understand how they fit together. Damn my parents for not making me take piano.

 

[Low_Ryder]

It is very useful to understand some theory rules here because when the root of the major chord is the melody, it is dissonant to use a major 7 chord because of the clash between the root and the Major 7. Try it you'll hear it better then words ;-)
But if the melody IS the Major 7, then Maj7 chord is prefered because it fits like a glove. If the root is in the melody, it is also useful to enhance the triad with a major 6 "à la Beatles" and play a major 6 chord.

A few questions: Do you mean that the melody would contain chord tones of the triad, excluding the maj7? And thus the maj7 chord (played as an arpeggio for instance) would sound dissonant?

And when you say if the melody is the major 7, do you mean a melody with tones that include the major 7 and also the major 3 and perfect 5? Maybe other tones as well?

And if you had any specific Beatles tunes I could listen to, I'd love to know which ones.

 

[mambo4]

Groove master is explaining a situation where You only need to consider a single melody note at any given time.
What sounds dissonant is the melody note being the root of the chord
While at the same time playing the major 7th in some other instrument.

If the melody note is C
and the chord is C maj ( C E G )
and some one plays the maj 7th (B) in an octave near to the melody
it sounds dissonant
because B and C are only a half step away form each other

but these are not absolute rules, a lot will depend on rhythm and context.
You can play a C major chord (CEG) and play C major scale over it for your melody and it will sound fine.
But, If you remove the context of that scale, and isolate each note and linger on it for a while
certain notes will sound more dissonant against that chord, like the 4th (F) or the 7th (B)

ultimately what sounds good or bad is highly dependent on what comes before and after.

 

[Low_Ryder]

That reminds me of a video I watched with Victor Wooten talking about the "wrong note." He was sting something and then added a note which clearly sounded out of place. But then he kept coming back to that note every bar or something, and the "wrong note" was magically transformed into an interesting, colorful, appropriate note. It added to the original line.

 

[Low_Ryder]

I think my take-away at this point is that the "theory" is useful to know and can help you make predictions about where a song is going, or what should be added in creating a song, but ultimately the "rules" are broken a lot if it sounds right.

So I need to listen.

 

[Groove Master]

A few questions: Do you mean that the melody would contain chord tones of the triad, excluding the maj7? And thus the maj7 chord (played as an arpeggio for instance) would sound dissonant?

And when you say if the melody is the major 7, do you mean a melody with tones that include the major 7 and also the major 3 and perfect 5? Maybe other tones as well?

And if you had any specific Beatles tunes I could listen to, I'd love to know which ones.

Nope I am talking chordal with melody. A melody over chords.

For a major 6 chord check the end of The Ballad of John and Yoko, Devil in Her Heart,Dizzy Miss Lizzy,Intro of Fool on the Hill...

 

[Pelao]

This may just be me, it seems like OP's questions were never fully answered.

1.) why, when, and how to choose a maj7 over a maj triad.

2.) an explanation of why there are three dominant chords in standard blues, and where these are derived from.

For question 1, 7th chords, whether maj7 dom7 or m7 are useful for adding color to the harmony. They are also useful for establishing functions. Having 4 notes instead of 3 can reinforce stability or instability. That to me is the why. For me, the when is whenever you want, as long as you are mindful of the other voicings. This goes into the how. As long as the melody is diatonic, you can construct 7th chords by simply stacking them in thirds diatonically. In this case, I and IV will always have a maj7.

For question 2, I don't know. In a sense, it is chicken and the egg, because those chords clearly illustrate the blues scale (IV7 adds a b3, and I7 adds a b7). Did this progression occur because of that scale, or did the scale happen because of the progression? I think the answer lies within a historical narrative. This is a guess, but I would take a guess that this all-dominant progression occurred because it is a movable pattern and thus didn't require formal training, opening up the style to be played by "common folk." That's just a guess however.