Major or relative minor key question

[wompwomp]

Personally, I’d say it spends more time in the minor key than the major.

isn't the relative minor just the 6th degree mode of the major?

I just looked up the music again and read that the verse is circle of 5ths counter-clockwise which I’d not noticed myself before, which is neat, you could argue that each ‘movement’ round the circle is its own key - like an Autumn Leafs type arrangement.

5ths counterclockwise is the circle of 4ths...

But. The main thing that pushes it into minor key for me is that it sounds melancholic with occasional glimpses of major key.

Hope this is interesting!

...when you move through the circle of 4ths you draft the next key by flatting the 7th and it becomes the new 4th. no other notes change so the overall vibe of moving through 4ths is a minor sound since you are essentially using a minor fall to get to the next tonal center. Jacob Collier has discussed this.

i'd probably tend to say killing me softly is in G major.

 

[bass player 53]

The Beatles ‘And I Love Her’
is an interesting tune. It starts in
a minor key and resolves the A section
in a major key, key of E.
After the bridge, the whole tune
moves up a half step, and ends
in the key of F.

 

[SJan3]

Yep, I am SO glad my High School music teacher taught us how to improvise. He didn't make all of us learn, only those that wanted to. I signed up in a heartbeat. I am forever indebted to him for this. He was a clarinetist and played in the Army Jazz band for over 20 years...he was friggin' amazing!

I already had a grasp of improvisation as a trombonist listening to Big Band and Dixieland jazz as a kid and learning to play along with it without a lead sheet but he helped me take it to another level.

I auditioned for a spot in the Navy musician program and was accepted but went into electronics instead...probably a smart move.

A smart move. Unless you're one of the few, it's tough making a decent living as a musician. I'm glad you kept music as a passion.

 

[SteveCS]

Gonna go out on a limb here and say pay attention to the v chord. Is it Dominant? Is it Dominant V7 without any accidentals modifying the chord?; = which a lot of times is going to lead to the I; if it has accidentals going to lead to the i. This is just something I would do if scanning wriiten music. Otherwise, as has been mentioned many times in the posts above, it's an aural determination.

It's not too much of a limb - more like standard practice. I refer the honourable gentleman to post #3 https://www.talkbass.com/threads/major-or-relative-minor-key-question.1681702/#post-29413852

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

I've been wondering lately how one tells if a piece of music is written in a Major key, or its relative minor? So, if the key signature is 3 flats (for example), what if anything would tip me off that it was written in Eb Major instead of C minor, or vice versa?

I've always wondered about this but never really addressed it before as people usually will tell you what key they're in. Should I assume it's in the Major key unless told otherwise?

Thanks in advance.

Often, but not always, a song will start with a chord and end with that same chord. And that chord is often the most-common chord of the song. That's most likely the root chord ("The one chord") and it often identifies what key the song is in. If a song starts on a C Major chord, and ends on a C Major chord, has lots of C Major chords percolating through it (as well as some F and G chords in it that are also quite frequent) and has that "happy major chord sound" it is almost assuredly in the key of C Major, NOT in the key of a minor.

 

[ryco]

It's not too much of a limb - more like standard practice. I refer the honourable gentleman to post #3 https://www.talkbass.com/threads/major-or-relative-minor-key-question.1681702/#post-29413852

Why!! How dare you call me an" honourable gentleman"??
I'm a bass player, dammit!

Happy New Year and thank you for sharing your generous wealth of musical info & insights!

 

[edwinhurwitz]

Generally, the last chord is a giveaway, but harmonic context is everything. ryco's hint is a good one.

 

[wompwomp]

Generally, the last chord is a giveaway, but harmonic context is everything. ryco's hint is a good one.

let's take a look at the end of killing me softly, I think the question was whether this is g maj or e min

looking at the end (and playing through the vocal melody a bit) I still think it's g maj

 

[ProgRocker]

The first port of call is your ears - the difference between major and minor is usually quite obvious. From music written in standard notation,look for an accidental on the leading tone, which in the minor key will be the 3rd of the dominant chord. If there is an accidental, it is normally a safe bet that the key is minor. But the final arbiter has to be your ears.

I can hear the difference between Major and minor, but I was thinking in terms of when you're looking at sheet music, and you see a key signature, how do you know if it's the Major or the relative minor?

Do you have to read into the music?

 

[bass player 53]

I can hear the difference between Major and minor, but I was thinking in terms of when you're looking at sheet music, and you see a key signature, how do you know if it's the Major or the relative minor?

Do you have to read into the music?

As I said before, you can’t tell just
looking at the written key signature.

Yes, you have to read into the music
and hear what’s going on.

I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone;
I’ve been reading guitar, bass, and
piano music for 60 years. I’m not
a music theory professor, but I think
that I’m correct. I do welcome any
corrections.

 

[ProgRocker]

The tonality of the music is an
important clue.
Does the piece sound major or
minor to you? If you can’t tell
the difference, you should explore
what that means.
Some music has both major and
minor sections. The music
can start or finish with either one.

Also, the ending note of the melody
is usually a strong clue.
In your example, does the melody
end on an ‘E flat’, which would be
major, or end on a ‘C’, which would
be minor.

There are no major or minor
key signatures. As you are surmising,
there is major and it’s relative minor.
I won’t get into the topic of
enharmonic equivalents.

I listen to a lot of Heavy Metal, which is pretty dominantly in minor keys (even the more "Happy" sounding songs by bands like Helloween and Blind Guardian). So I sometimes struggle with the tonal differences between Major and minor as my teacher pointed out years ago.

I know songs can and do have Major and minor chords, but I was unaware key changes from Major to minor keys or vice versa. I've seen time changes every few measures (big Dream Theater fan) but never noticed a key change.

I'm not saying it doesn't or can't happen. Only that I've never seen / noticed it before.

 

[ProgRocker]

The tonality of the music is an
important clue.
Does the piece sound major or
minor to you? If you can’t tell
the difference, you should explore
what that means.
Some music has both major and
minor sections. The music
can start or finish with either one.

Also, the ending note of the melody
is usually a strong clue.
In your example, does the melody
end on an ‘E flat’, which would be
major, or end on a ‘C’, which would
be minor.

There are no major or minor
key signatures. As you are surmising,
there is major and it’s relative minor.
I won’t get into the topic of
enharmonic equivalents.

Is the relative minor not a minor key regardless? Enharmonic equivalent like Db/C#, F#/Gb, and B/Cb?

 

[ProgRocker]

This question is a good reminder that "key" and "key signature" are two very different things. In theory, they aren't even related to each other: You could (in theory) write out the music for a song in any key using any key signature. In practice, of course, they do tend to be related, as the key of the song usually dictates what key signature it can most easily be written and read in -- i.e., with the fewest accidentals. As I suggested recently in another thread, a lot of confusion could be avoided if we called the "key signature" something like the "notation signature" instead.

Then what's the point of the key signature if it doesn't tell what key the music is written in? To keep with my original example, if the key signature is 3b, is the music not written either in Eb Major, or C minor?

If not, what purpose does the key signature have, and how (short of reading the music all the way through) would you know what key it is in? I'm still very new to Theory.

 

[bass player 53]

I listen to a lot of Heavy Metal, which is pretty dominantly in minor keys (even the more "Happy" sounding songs by bands like Helloween and Blind Guardian). So I sometimes struggle with the tonal differences between Major and minor as my teacher pointed out years ago.

I know songs can and do have Major and minor chords, but I was unaware key changes from Major to minor keys or vice versa. I've seen time changes every few measures (big Dream Theater fan) but never noticed a key change.

I'm not saying it doesn't or can't happen. Only that I've never seen / noticed it before.

Ok, I understand.
Since the very beginning of written
music, there are pieces that have
written key changes within the
continuous movement of the piece.
This is extremely common in
written piano music and orchestral
music. In orchestral music, you’ll be
playing in one key signature, major
or minor tonality, and then, whoa,
the written key signature changes
and you’re now playing in a different
tonality, major or minor.
In symphonic music, you’ll will find
the beginnings of the 3 or 4 movements in different written keys.
Same often times in piano sonatas
or concertos, or any instrumental
sonatas or concertos.

 

[bass player 53]

Is the relative minor not a minor key regardless? Enharmonic equivalent like Db/C#, F#/Gb, and B/Cb?

Yes, a relative minor is a relative minor
of a major key, regardless of the
enharmonic equivalent.
Sometimes/often times, key signatures
are written so as to avoid things like
more than 5 or 6 sharps or flats.

 

[RobertAuCoin]

Non-diatonic chords are non-functional. It only takes one altered chord tone.

I guess it depends what “functional” means. But altering chord tones is pretty common for some kinds of harmonic progression.

 

[bass player 53]

Then what's the point of the key signature if it doesn't tell what key the music is written in? To keep with my original example, if the key signature is 3b, is the music not written either in Eb Major, or C minor?

If not, what purpose does the key signature have, and how (short of reading the music all the way through) would you know what key it is in? I'm still very new to Theory.

When you read any piece of music,
it has to have a key signature and
time signature. The key signature
gives the tonality of the piece, either
major or minor, or possibly something
else. Within the music, individual notes
can additionally be given sharps or flats, even double sharps or flats.
The written key signature avoids the
trouble, inconvenience, and clutter
of assigning a sharp or flat to every
written note.

 

[RobertAuCoin]

Then what's the point of the key signature if it doesn't tell what key the music is written in?

The key signature tells you what notes are altered - by applying the sharps or flats that it contains - and what notes aren’t altered unless the composer has added accidentals.

 

[mambo4]

Gonna go out on a limb here and say pay attention to the v chord.

I was tempted to say "the cadence determines the key"
The V-I motion that completes as section
either by ending on I or turning around back to a I
( or a minor i )
is usually the give away to me.

 

[mambo4]

Then what's the point of the key signature if it doesn't tell what key the music is written in?

In addition to what others have said
It also can tell you the composer's intent - what key they want you to be operating in.
Which I guess is what you were asking about at first

keep in mind that "what key is <insert famous tune>" is fertile debate grounds for theory wanks
there is enough wiggle room in theory to feed multipage TB threads on such a question.

take a Blues in A major for example
gonna have lots of notes and chords not in the key signature for A major
because the blues ain't got time for that
You could try to find a key signature that covers more of the accidentals
But composers usually stick with A major
because that's the chord which functions as "home" (where my baby aint no more)