Major or relative minor key question

[Richard Lindsey]

Then what's the point of the key signature if it doesn't tell what key the music is written in? To keep with my original example, if the key signature is 3b, is the music not written either in Eb Major, or C minor?

If not, what purpose does the key signature have, and how (short of reading the music all the way through) would you know what key it is in? I'm still very new to Theory.

The fundamental (not necessary the only) point of the key signature is that it allows you to use fewer accidentals when writing it, which is a convenience. The key is always determined by what the harmony actually does. ALWAYS.

Plenty of music is best written without any key signature at all, for example if it isn't easily definable in terms of the accepted keys of functional Western tonality. I have a book of Hermeto Pascoal compositions, not one of which has any key signature. (And no, that doesn't mean the key is C. Not one of the tunes has anything to do with the key of C.)

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I was tempted to say "the cadence determines the key"
The V-I motion that completes as section
either by ending on I or turning around back to a I
( or a minor i )
is usually the give away to me.

That certainly is a big part of it.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

When you read any piece of music,
it has to have a key signature and
time signature.

It doesn't always have to have a key sig. There's a lot of music that is scored without any sharps or flats on a key sig. That doesn't mean the key sig is actually C, because more often than not such tunes have absolutely nothing to do with the key of C. In such cases, the absence of a key sig is really an admission that no clear key can be established, at least not by the standards of conventional functional harmony.

 

[logdrum]

Listen and at the same time read the Bach Cello Suites. Cello Suite no 4 is in Eb Major and 5 is in C minor , For a cellist even though they have the same signature notation. Suite 4 is a bitch to play compared to Suite 5.

Most modern charts do tell the tonal chord key , so should not be a non issue. And if you studied classical music theory , it will be a non issue as well because they teach you how to recognize that.

Are you playing unaccompanied bass etudes that this is a concern?

 

[bass player 53]

It doesn't always have to have a key sig. There's a lot of music that is scored without any sharps or flats on a key sig. That doesn't mean the key sig is actually C, because more often than not such tunes have absolutely nothing to do with the key of C. In such cases, the absence of a key sig is really an admission that no clear key can be established, at least not by the standards of conventional functional harmony.

Thank-you for bringing this composer
to my attention. Without straying too far from the OP’s original question, I
went to musicscore.com and looked
at many of his compositions. I will
actually have to listen to the tunes,
but I think that with the proper
analysis, most, if not all of the basic
tonality (could be atonal?) can be
deduced, with or without functional
harmony, which is not required.
I agree that the absence of sharps or
flats does not imply the key of C.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Thank-you for bringing this composer
to my attention. Without straying too far from the OP’s original question, I
went to musicscore.com and looked
at many of his compositions. I will
actually have to listen to the tunes,
but I think that with the proper
analysis, most, if not all of the basic
tonality (could be atonal?) can be
deduced, with or without functional
harmony, which is not required.
I agree that the absence of sharps or
flats does not imply the key of C.

Cool, I think you'll enjoy some of the tunes. Whether they're atonal depends, I suppose, on one's definition. They're not usually terribly dissonant, but they usually work rather differently. You can definitely find temporary tonal centers in many of Pascoal's compositions, but there are often several in a single tune, without any of them being convincingly established as THE key of the piece. It's often difficult to say that any of the tunes are "in" Dm or G or whatever. Even if they start and end in the same place, they often don't exhibit the functions typical of functional harmony.

 

[Jens Telemark]

I used to sub on a house gig doing Mandarin versions of western hit pop songs. The book of around 300 songs had no info other than a giant page number and a key signature. I used to wonder all sorts of things looking at those charts. Would the meal be edible? Did the Leafs blow that 4 goal lead? Is it too late for law school? Probably not if a chart was F major or D minor though.

If the resolutions don’t make it obvious then it’s not obvious. I hear spending time at the piano helps make less obvious things more obvious but I wouldn’t know much about that. Confident ambiguity in the face of indecision takes up less space than a piano.

 

[Les Fret]

Short answer: just look at the last bass note of the piece. That’s 95% of the time the root.

 

[JamesGrant]

isn't the relative minor just the 6th degree mode of the major?



5ths counterclockwise is the circle of 4ths...



...when you move through the circle of 4ths you draft the next key by flatting the 7th and it becomes the new 4th. no other notes change so the overall vibe of moving through 4ths is a minor sound since you are essentially using a minor fall to get to the next tonal center. Jacob Collier has discussed this.

i'd probably tend to say killing me softly is in G major.

If you ask someone to write the circle of 5ths and go counter clockwise then every music student will do the same thing. If you ask the same group to write the circle of 4ths and go clockwise you’ll get… rather different results from the same group of students. So yes, ‘everyone’ familiar with circle of 5ths will start at the top with no sharp/flats and add sharps clockwise, flats counterclockwise, ‘everyone’ knows that if you go counterclockwise then the intervals are 4ths. But, the ‘construct’ is still ‘the circle of 5ths’ but the direction of travel is counter clockwise.

As to notes and modes, yes - of course, we can choose the best construct we want to communicate linguistically relative to the concepts being discussed. Ultimately they are just frequency intervals or sound pressure groupings that make people feel things.

Not gunning for an argument, just explaining my choice of ‘coat hooks’ on which I hung my interpretation - should it be of any interest! Have a good one!

 

[jmattbassplaya]

I was always taught to pay attention to where the music resolves. What chord or tone feels like you’ve “reached home?”

 

[Richard Lindsey]

isn't the relative minor just the 6th degree mode of the major?

No, not really. The A aeolian mode is the 6th degree mode of the C major scale (C ionian mode), if you want to think of it that way, but A minor as a key (in functional harmony) involves more than the aeolian mode.

 

[Lobster11]

Then what's the point of the key signature if it doesn't tell what key the music is written in? To keep with my original example, if the key signature is 3b, is the music not written either in Eb Major, or C minor?

If not, what purpose does the key signature have, and how (short of reading the music all the way through) would you know what key it is in? I'm still very new to Theory.

If the point of the key signature was to indicate the key, it isn't a very good way of doing so. At a minimum, as you know, it leaves ambiguous whether the key of the song is, say, Eb major or C minor.

The reason I (only half-seriously) suggested that we refer to the key signature instead as the "notation signature" is that it's purpose is really just as an instruction about how to read the score. Three flats indicates that every time you see an B, E, or A note on the staff, you should read and play it as Bb, Eb, or Ab, respectively -- unless indicated otherwise.

In principle we could do away with "key signatures" in writing music, with the assumption that all notes on the staff are to be read and played as natural notes unless otherwise indicated. (This would be like the key signature usually associated with C major or A minor.) But if the song is actually played in the key of either C minor or Eb major, the writer would have to add a "b" symbol next to every B, E, and A note throughout the score (perhaps with out-of-key exceptions). This would be perfectly accurate, but a nuisance to both the writer and the reader: The score would be cluttered with those "accidentals," and even more so in a key with three or more flats or sharps. The key signature allows the writer to say "whenever you see the note B, play it as Bb; whenever you see the note E, play it as Eb, etc. -- unless indicated otherwise."

 

[RobertAuCoin]

The point of using a key signature ... is that it works better than not using a key signature. Yes, there can be ambiguity over the relative majors and minors. Yes, there can be chromatic variations of harmony within the key, which require using accidentals on the score that are outside the key signature. Yes, the composer can have modulations during a tune that change the key temporarily or even permanently, without a corresponding change of the key signature on the score -- again by using accidentals. Or the composer can notate a modulation by inserting a new key signature in the score, yet there may be new variations or modulations later.

But composers use accidentals in key signatures on scores -- not just on the individual notes throughout the score -- because that helps musicians to read the score. Seeing the accidentals in the key signature does help you understand the tonal center of the tune. The key signature accidentals also help you see the chromatic variations, since, noting accidentals only for individual notes that are outside the key signature effectively tells the musician to understand that the note is outside the tonal center of the main key.

The key signature helps you read the score. It just doesn't read the score for you. Reading scores takes practice with the instrument itself, and one's ear. Others have correctly mentioned most of this, already, so I apologize for recapitulating that info.

 

[wompwomp]

@JamesGrant I couldn't quote you for whatever reason so your quote is ital'd below:

If you ask someone to write the circle of 5ths and go counter clockwise then every music student will do the same thing. If you ask the same group to write the circle of 4ths and go clockwise you’ll get… rather different results from the same group of students. So yes, ‘everyone’ familiar with circle of 5ths will start at the top with no sharp/flats and add sharps clockwise, flats counterclockwise, ‘everyone’ knows that if you go counterclockwise then the intervals are 4ths. But, the ‘construct’ is still ‘the circle of 5ths’ but the direction of travel is counter clockwise.

that is a very strange convention to me. so when you look at Killing Me Softly you think 'aha it's counter 5ths progression'? nah. i'll stick with 4ths.

As to notes and modes, yes - of course, we can choose the best construct we want to communicate linguistically relative to the concepts being discussed. Ultimately they are just frequency intervals or sound pressure groupings that make people feel things.

agreed but i'm still unsure why 'reverse 5th' is more communicative than simply saying '4th', especially so that they are just frequency intervals or sound pressure groupings that make people feel things!

in my own study i maintain 4ths and 5ths as independent, I don't think it's a small thing to implicate the very order of the notes.

Not gunning for an argument, just explaining my choice of ‘coat hooks’ on which I hung my interpretation - should it be of any interest! Have a good one!

agreed this is all just theory after all, peace!

No, not really. The A aeolian mode is the 6th degree mode of the C major scale (C ionian mode), if you want to think of it that way, but A minor as a key (in functional harmony) involves more than the aeolian mode.

idk if you are generalizing but the example at hand is Killing Me Softly. here's an interesting analysis including much about whether the prevailing key is major or minor (he notes the final chord as a picardy third of home, so I guess he's concluding that it's a minor key). interestingly he does use the term 'falling 5th' lol.

 

[KenSmithFan]

How does one get a degree in Music Ed and not know how to sing harmonies off the cuff?

How does someone play music their whole lives and not be able to read music?

Reading music and improvising are two completely different skill sets. Why would you think that the ability to do one automatically imparts the knowledge to do the other?

 

[dougjwray]

How does someone play music their whole lives and not be able to read music?

Reading music and improvising are two completely different skill sets. Why would you think that the ability to do one automatically imparts the knowledge to do the other?

Way back in 1980, I participated in a composer friend's concert at Carnegie Recital Hall. He was basically a rock guy who had studied classical composition, and a couple of his heroes were Gershwin and Zappa.
One of the other participants was a violinist who was the chairman of the music department where my friend and I had gone to college. He was a founding member of a world famous string quartet.
Anyway, in a part that my friend had written for the violinist, there was a passage like "play 8 measures of A minor." The violinist was fairly upset-- "What the hell am I supposed to play?!" (I thought this was a little odd because he certainly could play cadenzas.)
But it was kind of eye-opening to me, because as a self-taught, blues/rock/jazz "play in the garage with my pals" guy, that section of the score would have been nearly the ONLY one that I could have handled, as far as reading!
Yup, there are all kinds of musicians out there...

 

[Core Creek]

The tonal center dictates the key for me. So something could be C major or A minor, or D Dorian, E Lydian, F Mixolydian or B Locrian. They all have the same notes - but which one you’re using is based on which note the tune revolves around.

I just asked this question here - what key is Dreams by Fleetwood Mac? It’s an F Major chord followed by a G Major chord….

 

[sean_on_bass]

I've been wondering lately how one tells if a piece of music is written in a Major key, or its relative minor? So, if the key signature is 3 flats (for example), what if anything would tip me off that it was written in Eb Major instead of C minor, or vice versa?

I've always wondered about this but never really addressed it before as people usually will tell you what key they're in. Should I assume it's in the Major key unless told otherwise?

Thanks in advance.

Does it resolve to the major chord or the minor chord? that's the main difference to me. So in your example, the chords of the song will tell me if in Eb or C minor.

 

[ryco]

So does this mean we're going to back to the discussion of whether Sweet Home Alabama is in G or D? asking for Jimmy M.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

So does this mean we're going to back to the discussion of whether Sweet Home Alabama is in G or D? asking for Jimmy M.

Please, noooo!