MAKE MUSIC A BUSINESS

[Altitude]

A light bar has a big impact. Makes the band look like a band, not a few guys playing guitars. Fog machine, too. Both of those are high return investments for a band. Our guy has a light bar that is surprisingly portable.

I used to rail against jeans and t-shirts. Now I’ve resigned to it being the current uniform. Although I do try a little harder than faded dad Levi’s and a 2-sizes-too-big navy T from Kohl’s. There is a way to look like a rock star in jeans and a T; it involves taste and exercise. You kind of have to try hard to look like you aren’t trying hard.

Shorts and Hawaiian shirts are out, unless I’m gigging on Maui.

 

[Paulabass]

You are only ever going to get back what you put in. Contribute nothing, expect nothing.

 

[3Liter]

Hear! Hear!!!!!!!

*sigh*

I'm just glad to know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I have been saying the same things here for years. Dad bands are ruining the local music scenes across the country.

If you are just trying to relive your high school garage band glory days, do the rest of us a favor and stay home.

If you can't be bothered with lights and a decent PA, stay home.

If you don't feel like putting on a SHOW, stay home.

If you don't understand that you should not be dressed anything like your audience, stay home.

In short, if you're you're going to act, look and sound like you are playing in your back yard, DON'T LEAVE YOUR BACK YARD. IT'S WHERE YOU BELONG.

If a "dad band" is hurting your business model why is that? If a dad band can get booked and fill the room is that the bar's fault? My buddy has such a band. He fills the place with his HS buddies. It's like a reunion every 3 months or so. They have decent money to spend on food so the venue likes that. On the whole, the music is so so.

Is that hurting your business model and if so, why so? If I wanted to recite beat poetry but it filled the bar, isn't that what the bars care about?

 

[Paulabass]

^ Any kind of music, any kind of band. If they are drawing enough to pay the bills that's great.
My OP was more about musicians who are trying to make a living, and blaming venues for their sorry ass performances.

 

[whatizitman]

Hear! Hear!!!!!!!

*sigh*

I'm just glad to know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I have been saying the same things here for years. Dad bands are ruining the local music scenes across the country.

If you are just trying to relive your high school garage band glory days, do the rest of us a favor and stay home.

If you can't be bothered with lights and a decent PA, stay home.

If you don't feel like putting on a SHOW, stay home.

If you don't understand that you should not be dressed anything like your audience, stay home.

In short, if you're you're going to act, look and sound like you are playing in your back yard, DON'T LEAVE YOUR BACK YARD. IT'S WHERE YOU BELONG.

Ahh yes. It's the dad bands that are ruining everything. It has nothing to do with the myriad of other factors of change since the good old 80s. It's those dad bands.

That being said, I agree that staying home is a good option for dad bands. As a self-professed dadrocker, all of our shows are at home parties. No lights. Crappy PAs. Drums only when sound limits permit. More fun than a show. The audience has fun. But it's definitely not because we are rocking their socks off. They are friends and family. Y'know, the same folks who we would have to beg to come see us at a bar if we took our dadrock on the road. Many of them wouldn't come. Not necessarily because they don't want to see us play. But because they, LIKE MOST PEOPLE, only go to bars and/or live music occasionally. They will, however, come over to my house for fun and games, booze, food, and music.

The reality is not everyone wants to see every live band in every bar in every city on every night. Lights notwithstanding. Regardless of how good a show is, the only people who will come to see, much less pay, are the ones who not only want to see you play, but are willing to drive and park downtown, go to some bar, and/or pay a cover. Whether we want to believe it or not, this is a dwindling population.

 

[two fingers]

If a "dad band" is hurting your business model why is that? If a dad band can get booked and fill the room is that the bar's fault? My buddy has such a band. He fills the place with his HS buddies. It's like a reunion every 3 months or so. They have decent money to spend on food so the venue likes that. On the whole, the music is so so.

Is that hurting your business model and if so, why so? If I wanted to recite beat poetry but it filled the bar, isn't that what the bars care about?

Most dad bands drag the prices of live music down. There's sort of a Laffer Curve to the cost of a band. If you can get a live band that makes you a little money for $200, why hire the $700-$1,000 band? The latter might make you more money, but why gamble it when the dad band will play for almost nothing? They are so desperate to play out live that they will almost give their product away. They don't have a business model. It's not a business to them. It's a hobby. Any time you allow hobbyists into a business, it hurts business.

Some schmuck with a consumer grade camera will take "snap shots" of your wedding and burn you a CD for $100. That hurts actual photographers. My first wedding fell victim to the awful pics. Good thing the marriage didn't last.

A maintenance guy at a factory gets his electrical license and starts wiring houses for his buddies on the weekends and it drives the cost of electrical work for actual electricians down.... even though their work is usually barely acceptable. (I'm an electrician and have seen their work.)

Some guy with a lawnmower and a pickup truck starts cutting grass for $40 in your neighborhood and it hurts actual landscapers.... even though their work is sub par.

The problem with us as musicians is that we don't see live music the same as any other business. But it is.

 

[two fingers]

Ahh yes. It's the dad bands that are ruining everything. It has nothing to do with the myriad of other factors of change since the good old 80s. It's those dad bands.

That being said, I agree that staying home is a good option for dad bands. As a self-professed dadrocker, all of our shows are at home parties. No lights. Crappy PAs. Drums only when sound limits permit. More fun than a show. The audience has fun. But it's definitely not because we are rocking their socks off. They are friends and family. Y'know, the same folks who we would have to beg to come see us at a bar if we took our dadrock on the road. Many of them wouldn't come. Not necessarily because they don't want to see us play. But because they, LIKE MOST PEOPLE, they only go to bars and/or live music occasionally. They will, however, come over to my house for fun and games, booze, food, and music.

The reality is not everyone wants to see every live band in every bar in every city on every night. Lights notwithstanding. Regardless of how good a show is, the only people who will come to see, much less pay, are the ones who not only want to see you play, but are willing to drive and park downtown, go to some bar, and/or pay a cover. Whether we want to believe it or not, this is a dwindling population.

I am going to see a band Friday night. They are three dad's and a mom. HOWEVER, they have a great light show. They put on a show. They tear up smash rock hit after smash rock hit. They dress the part.

They are still making good money after 25 years of doing it. They make $2,000 minimum for a Friday night and more for a Saturday.

There are half a dozen bars in my town they can't play anymore because a minivan full of sensible shoes wearing "good old days" beer belly AC/DC shirt wearing sandals and socks wearing neighborhood rockers will play them for a couple hundred bucks.... or less.

 

[Wood and Wire]

It's important to keep context in mind, and tailor your shows accordingly.

For some venues / shows / audiences, a full on production, displaying your stagecraft, fancy duds, dazzling visual spectacle, and killer sub system, is not just appropriate, but essential.

The opposite is also true :

I'll never forget seeing an out of town 5-piece Emo / Pop Punk originals band playing in small bar / art gallery / venue, to at most 40 people.

They had designer thrift store chic - groomed to an inch of their lives, all their posturing and poses well rehearsed, and they projected videos for all their songs on to their backdrop, on a stage made of 4 rostrablocks strapped together.

The piece de resistance was when they started projecting the lyrics to their songs on screen, expecting everyone to sing along.

They literally got laughed off stage.

 

[whatizitman]

Here's a thought. Explain how or why trick or treating has changed since we were kids. That will go a way towards explaining how live music has changed.

I am going to see a band Friday night. They are three dad's and a mom. HOWEVER, they have a great light show. They put on a show. They tear up smash rock hit after smash rock hit. They dress the part.

They are still making good money after 25 years of doing it. They make $2,000 minimum for a Friday night and more for a Saturday.

There are half a dozen bars in my town they can't play anymore because a minivan full of sensible shoes wearing "good old days" beer belly AC/DC shirt wearing sandals and socks wearing neighborhood rockers will play them for a couple hundred bucks.... or less.

Everyone needs electricians. Not everyone needs live music. For the times when people may "need" live music, they are more often than not willing to pay for something decent.

It's clear from your example that audiences ARE willing to pay for a good show. If the venues, however, are willing to pay less for crappy music, then there is not a lot we can do about it. Take it up with them. Bars come and go. Most have stopped having live music at all, and not because bands are crappy, but a host of other economic reasons that have been expressed here on TB ad infinitum.

The idea of the bar as necessary for that formula is all but defunct. There are plenty of other ways and places to showcase. As a dadbander, I can't understand why local bands even want to go the bar route, given all the baggage with it. I would rather play at home.

I won't be going to see any sensible shoe bands anytime soon. I would rather stay home and play. But I probably won't be seeing too many local "good shows", either. My point is that most live music, good or not, serves niche markets. I understand the frustration of feeling undercut. But the reality is that people will pay what they think something is worth, whether we agree with it or not.

 

[two fingers]

Here's a thought. Explain how or why trick or treating has changed since we were kids. That will go a way towards explaining how live music has changed.


Everyone needs electricians. Not everyone needs live music. For the times when people may "need" live music, they are more often than not willing to pay for something decent.

It's clear from your example that audiences ARE willing to pay for a good show. If the venues, however, are willing to pay less for crappy music, then there is not a lot we can do about it. Take it up with them. Bars come and go. Most have stopped having live music at all, and not because bands are crappy, but a host of other economic reasons that have been expressed here on TB ad infinitum.

The idea of the bar as necessary for that formula is all but defunct. There are plenty of other ways and places to showcase. As a dadbander, I can't understand why local bands even want to go the bar route, given all the baggage with it. I would rather play at home.

I won't be going to see any sensible shoe bands anytime soon. I would rather stay home and play. But I probably won't be seeing too many local "good shows", either. My point is that most live music, good or not, serves niche markets. I understand the frustration of feeling undercut. But the reality is that people will pay what they think something is worth, whether we agree with it or not.

Your statement that people will pay what they think something is worth doesn't work here. There's a middle man.... the bar owner. The audience doesn't get to decide whether or not live music is "worth it". The bar owner decides for us. And they are an unusual bunch. The usual rules don't apply.

 

[3Liter]

What is the line break between a local band and a "dad band"? I can think of one band specifically. They have been friends and played together for 30 years on and off. They play a tiny dive doing Allman Brothers and popular blues and kill it. Packed room. They are all like 60+ and kinda look like hobos. They player nicer things too in the area around this small town. I could not play in that band as they are quite good.

They have a good following.

Are they a dad (granddad?) band?

This venue wouldn't/couldn't book a more produced band. Jot sure it would fit!

My friend runs a blues band. She's in charge and finds good people. The crowd is mostly her friends. I told them they needed to work on transitions a bit. Is this a dad band?

I know another band that plays every weekend or two but it's still seemingly like a paying hobby. There are organized and promote the events. Where is the dividing line?

 

[Grumpynuts]

What is the line break between a local band and a "dad band"? I can think of one band specifically. They have been friends and played together for 30 years on and off. They play a tiny dive doing Allman Brothers and popular blues and kill it. Packed room. They are all like 60+ and kinda look like hobos. They player nicer things too in the area around this small town. I could not play in that band as they are quite good.

They have a good following.

Are they a dad (granddad?) band?

This venue wouldn't/couldn't book a more produced band. Jot sure it would fit!

My friend runs a blues band. She's in charge and finds good people. The crowd is mostly her friends. I told them they needed to work on transitions a bit. Is this a dad band?

I know another band that plays every weekend or two but it's still seemingly like a paying hobby. There are organized and promote the events. Where is the dividing line?

I think you are attempting to quantify what you can tell in your gut. Dad bands are the convertibles of the music world, they are having a mid-life crisis and think because they can musically karaoke their way through a few standards that they have made it and that's good enough.

They have neither the need to create as artists, or the desire to build up the technical ability to make anything they do any better than mayonnaise-white noise. They do not work on their image, (body or clothing) showmanship, stage presence, or give any idea that they understand their limitations and attempt to do the best they can within them.

People use the "orchestra is a cover band." crap over and over. Yeah, that cover band spent years getting so damn good at their instruments that they actually can call it a performance, tight and engaging. They dress the part, and take pride in the being the absolute best they can be.

It is excruciatingly frustrating for anyone who either works their asses off to be creative and reach their audience, or grinds out the years, one note at a time, to be amazing at their instrument, and invests the money into a real stage show.

The kick in the junk is when these turds are being hired by other lazy turds on the cheap and taking away venues from the good ones. It makes it not only harder to just go out and see a good one, it kills the scene.

There's a reason why other trades have guilds/unions/certifications, its to keep from diluting the product. If you aren't good enough skill wise, have not invested in the proper tools, you don't get to offer your services to the public.

Ok... I am ok now

 

[Grumpynuts]

P.S. Slipknot was started in their late 30's early 40's. A Perfect Circle was started when Billy Howerdel was in his mid 30s. Hell, Steel Panther got going at that age too, and they were "just a cover band" that worked hard on their music and showmanship.

So it's not an age thing, it's a matter of caring and appreciation of the effort, from the band, the venues, and the crowd.

 

[jamro217]

If you want to be treated as professional, act that way. If you rehearse and put the work in before getting gigs, when you make your debut, you will get noticed. The problem with this is getting a band that is willing to lay the groundwork. Look at it like a business in the sense that you were going to open up a pizza shop instead of a band. First you'd need a building, pizza ovens, health inspection certificates, menus, boxes, and food ingredients in place and ready to go before you sold one pizza. This takes time and money, which is a calculated risk. There is no guarantee you'd be a success, but the better prepared you are the better chance you have. As a band the same is true. Decide on the musical material, genre, image, and target audience. What appeals to them? Tailor your show to your target audience. Woodshed and get tight first. Dress and act the part, even if your persona adds a different element to the norm. Regardless of what your stage image is, make damn sure your business image is a solid one. Be courteous, on time, get contracts in writing, iron out the details beforehand... This is what separates the hacks from the pros.

 

[Bass Viking]

While we're at it: Videos. Why do so many band's websites have crappy cell phone videos taken by an audience member? I'm talking poor audio quality, shaky camera work, etc. It SCREAMS amateur!

 

[blue4]

Lots of talk about lighting here. I'm surprised that so many people think this is important. 43 years on this planet, dozens upon dozens of cover shows I've been to, I don't think I've ever heard a single person remark on a cover bands lights. You have to have a singer with charisma and character to their voice. Everything else is optional. JMO, and speaking as a fan not a band member. Just like a football team can have the prettiest cheerleaders, the new stadium and 51 other great players but if you don't have a quarterback it's over before it started.

You can blame the drummer's clothes or dad bands, but there's no demand for multiple cover bands in each town anymore. Times have just changed.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Nor do I. But most of us are not full-time. I don't suggest anyone not take a gig seriously ... I do, because someone is paying me to. And yes, we've had many gigs that pay more, as I said, and we RENT what we need, if we NEED it.

That's cool and I still don't see a self-contained band owning their own lighting or pa gear as not being business minded.

I decided a long time ago not to focus on low paying work. One of the best professional music business decisions I ever made. I'm responsible for me except when I'm paid to MD.

 

[Brad Johnson]

In my view, it doesn't make a difference whether the band is a business or not. One of the bands that I belong to is non commercial. Yet we put on a great show that's respectful to the music and the audience. We've been voted "best jazz band" in our locale on multiple occasions. We draw a decent crowd every month, despite playing relatively obscure music. Many of the band members are also part- and full-time pro's in other ensembles.

The one thing I won't do is denigrate anybody who plays music that has limited commercial potential. There are plenty of other reasons to make and listen to music: Art, education, political activism, and so forth.

Of course there will be varying opinions on the amount of sound gear required to deliver a good performance, but I think that volume levels have played a major role in the decline of live music. One of the bands that I play in gets calls for private gigs because they heard us in a bar or restaurant, and we weren't too loud.

A quartet that we formed for a gig has played at an annual outdoor community day for a neighboring church for a few years. We play what could best be called jazz funk gospel. The last time we played we were approached by a guy who had an indoor function in a couple of months. He loved what we were doing but he had a big concern...

were we too loud to play indoors.


With straight faces we assured him that we could play at any volume required, we're pros and we get it. He hired us on the spot. We didn't lowball on the price, we explained that just like with the outdoor functions, you're paying for more than just music... there will be no drama with us. We'll be there on time, dressed appropriately, excellent gear, ready to play whatever we've agreed on, however the situation required. We're there to make you look good.

I think that this was the first time he'd hired entertainment so because I was the only one with a business card I became the de facto contact. Lots of hand holding ensued. Lots. Like this exchange a month before the gig:

"Can you get everyone's full name?"
"Sure, I'll get back to you". I texted everyone.

An hour later...
"Do you have the names?"
"Not yet, I texted everyone, still waiting to hear back.
"YOU DON'T KNOW THEIR NAMES??"
"No, I don't know everyone's middle name. You asked for full names"
"Oh yeah, I did. We don't need that".

Crisis averted.

The night of the show he was still very concerned that we would play too loud. Turned out it was a show to lift the spirits of people who'd recently lost a loved one. As requested we started with more uptempo contemporary gospel then morphed into more jazzy. They loved it, everyone seemed to have a nice time and the guy who hired us even asked us to step it up towards the end. He was clearly pleased at how good we made him look for hiring us. We have another gig with him, pretty sure the dynamic will be very different.

 

[RustyAxe]

As always ... it isn't black or white ... this or that. If you and your band think it's worth throwing $10K on stage for $150/man, have at it! I see it every weekend. Doesn't bother me in the least. But if I'm playing in your two-bit bar band, don't expect me to chip in for stage lighting, arena PA systems, or any of that ... but I will come rehearsed and ready to play, dressed appropriately for the audience and venue. And if your two-bit bar band has dreams of grandeur ... I'm out.

 

[RustyAxe]

Or you could stay at home practicing in your basement. Seriously, I hear you, but that is a static point of view. The business approach is you build it, they will come. By having the lights, the subs, assuming you are going to play at that establishment more than once, in time you will draw more people giving you the ability to raise your rate of pay.

That's my point ... it IS a static point of view ... for those who don't have their heads in the clouds (or perhaps elsewhere) and aren't willing to eat canned beans to buy gear they don't need, in the hopes that someday they will. There's only ONE thing that raises the pay of a bar band ... more asses on the dance floor, and more $$$ in the till. Period.