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"Making it" internationally

woodsracer

woodsracer

Oct 1, 2023
20
18
#1
Sorry, wasn't sure what forum to post this to! Please move if necessary.

I'm about to make some big changes in my life and have been considering teaching English abroad for a while, and during that time trying to secure regular gigs with the intention of doing that full time instead of teaching if I can make it work. I'm not delusional, I know that might prove to be very difficult, but as an American bassist with skills and experience playing a lot of different stuff over the years, I may potentially have a leg up on the competition. Or maybe not! I have been to 24 countries but have never been truly immersed for longer than a few weeks. It would be a killer life adventure to at least give it a shot, as I love to travel and learn about cultures but also love playing music!!

So the question is, are there certain places in the world where I might have the best chances? I am willing (and able for the most part) to play a ton of genres so I'm hoping to leave that out of the considerations here, especially because any decent sized city is going to have a good variety going on (I would think!). Are there certain places that may have a dearth/scarcity of bassists? Places that would idealize having an American dude in their band to up my chances of success?

I'm looking at Japan, Korea, and Spain right now but would like suggestions! East Asia would be an awesome experience and I feel might give me the best advantage for being the "exotic" musician which might give me more chances for tryouts and stuff, and they also pay well and often include housing to teach English. But I'd rely on them speaking decent English in the band setting which could be problematic in Japan especially. Spain would be awesome because I speak some Spanish and would put effort into becoming fluent, but they don't pay that well for teachers. Cost of living is also less there though, so gotta weigh all the options, but I want to try to figure out where the best opportunities might be. Just for perspective, I hate K pop but if I could make money (and meet tons of ladies doing it) I would totally be down!!

Just started looking into the TEFL certifications to teach and considering cost of living and all that, just ideas right now. Maybe the answer is it's tough to make it anywhere in the world no matter who you are, but hopefully some of you might have some relevant music experience to share!

One of my current groups, playing some reggae/hiphop originals a few days ago:
 
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#3
Heiwa said:
I really don´t think so
Click to expand...
Yeah... These days, when I'm abroad, keeping the "I'm American" vibe on the QT has been highly advisable... Bass player or not. We toured Italy with our big band a few months ago. Folks were receptive during the concerts in Rome and other places, and had some great hangs in Rome with really nice local folks, but Florence, and even more so Venice, wasn't exactly overflowing with folks glad to have Americans there. ESPECIALLY Venice.
 
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#5
First of all, I can only encourage you to do this. 24 years ago I went the other direction but for love. The love went away but I stayed. ;)

Things you should be awre off:
  1. You need the proper work permit. Your teachers permit may not allow you to make anything from music or any other profession for that matter. This depends on country region.
  2. Be prepared to make a dummy out of yourself.
    1. I learned british english in school and asked my beautiful, blonde, female american co-worker for a rubber. The look on her face was priceless. That was the day I learned it's an eraser in the US. :D
  3. You will always be different. Depending on where you end up, it may be visible but it definitely will be audible. People always know that I aint from 'round here when I talk.
    1. You will face discrimination because of this. Luckily I haven't experienced much but it does hurt when it happens. If you have never experienced that, be prepared.
  4. Musicwise, I suspect that people will be interested in playing with you. But that may just open a door. You still have to walk through it and deliver.
Good luck. I think everybody should be required to live abroad for some time. The world would be a much, much different place.
 
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#9
woodsracer said:
Sorry, wasn't sure what forum to post this to! Please move if necessary.

I'm about to make some big changes in my life and have been considering teaching English abroad for a while, and during that time trying to secure regular gigs with the intention of doing that full time instead of teaching if I can make it work. I'm not delusional, I know that might prove to be very difficult, but as an American bassist with skills and experience playing a lot of different stuff over the years, I may potentially have a leg up on the competition. Or maybe not! I have been to 24 countries but have never been truly immersed for longer than a few weeks. It would be a killer life adventure to at least give it a shot, as I love to travel and learn about cultures but also love playing music!!

So the question is, are there certain places in the world where I might have the best chances? I am willing (and able for the most part) to play a ton of genres so I'm hoping to leave that out of the considerations here, especially because any decent sized city is going to have a good variety going on (I would think!). Are there certain places that may have a dearth/scarcity of bassists? Places that would idealize having an American dude in their band to up my chances of success?

I'm looking at Japan, Korea, and Spain right now but would like suggestions! East Asia would be an awesome experience and I feel might give me the best advantage for being the "exotic" musician which might give me more chances for tryouts and stuff, and they also pay well and often include housing to teach English. But I'd rely on them speaking decent English in the band setting which could be problematic in Japan especially. Spain would be awesome because I speak some Spanish and would put effort into becoming fluent, but they don't pay that well for teachers. Cost of living is also less there though, so gotta weigh all the options, but I want to try to figure out where the best opportunities might be. Just for perspective, I hate K pop but if I could make money (and meet tons of ladies doing it) I would totally be down!!

Just started looking into the TEFL certifications to teach and considering cost of living and all that, just ideas right now. Maybe the answer is it's tough to make it anywhere in the world no matter who you are, but hopefully some of you might have some relevant music experience to share!

One of my current groups, playing some reggae/hiphop originals a few days ago:
Click to expand...

I can’t speak to this broadly but I can say that if you end up in Japan, you likely won’t end up in Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto or likely any other big cultural hub as an English teacher, unless you’re already connected with a large company and can at least partly speak the language. You’re much more likely to end up in a small town somewhere. Might make the prospect of playing music full time a bit difficult.

頑張ってね！
 
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#10
I have 0 practical or first hand knowledge so take it with a grain of salt, but from what exposure I've had to the J- and K-pop industries, yes, they are well funded enough that being a musician is considered a stable career option rather than a delusional pipe dream (as it usually is here), and yes, they are big enough that there may be more opportunities per capita to pursue such, but if you wouldn't pull up stakes and move to your nearest major city fully confident that you would nail any gig opportunity that came your way, it probably wouldn't be wise to do so there.

That is to say, any "leg-up" your foreign-ness may net you would be far outclassed by the disadvantages you'd have against the people who had been training for the job since their early childhood, unless you're a recent Berklee grad so tired of turning down gigs cause you're too busy and just looking for a change of pace.

Have you considered Cote d'Ivoire? Apparently Abidjan is considered the music capital of West Africa generally, might be a lot of opportunities to make your way.
 
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#11
I have been an immigrant since 2005; three times. I have also worked in over 25 countries on four continents.

Good musicians are everywhere; you are unlikely to be a standout, if you are not a standout now.

However, playing music is a good way to connect with local people. Do it for the overall experience; it will change your outlook.

I know firsthand that Ukraine needs English teachers.
 
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#13
Ok, my experience for context. From the US (California). Lived in (then West) Berlin in 1988-89 and played in bands then - was probably close to what you imagine, that having an American in the band was a cool novelty and gigs were plentiful, if low paid (cost of living was super cheap). Toured in France in '92. Played a lot back in California mid 90's-mid 00's - 150 shows or so a year during that time. Started touring every year or two in Europe starting in 2003 (first tour started with one festival gig and was added to and ended up being 26 shows in 25 cities/towns in 30 days). Moved to Europe in 2006 and now have dual US/EU citizenship. Since living here have toured in Poland (where I'm based), Germany, France, Switzerland, Italy and Ukraine. Was set to do a mostly club level tour in Slovakia, Czech Republic, Germany, Denmark and Poland in 2020 but then 2020 happened...

A lot has changed during those years (all relative to the EU).

In the 80's being American still had some status to it (still, even back in the 60's and 70's there were plenty of stories of Americans putting Canadian flag patches on their backpacks, etc) and being able to skate the system was easier as things weren't as integrated/computerized (similar with bands getting paid under the table). Now, if you don't have a legal status, you really have to mind the 90 day limit/180 in 365. People absolutely do get deported and barred from reentry - I'm in a lot of expat Facebook groups and have seen some of these stories play out. If teaching English, you might be able to get a language school to sponsor a work permit - but for them to have the incentive to do that, it has to be somewhere were English native speakers are in short supply. Keep in mind that work permits are only for the country of issue, they do not allow work in other EU countries.

As others have said, don't discount the level of local musicians. There are many excellent players in all these countries.

Venues. This is where things have really changed. Back in the 80's-90's a lot of American bands, if of the right genre, could do week or so residency gigs in Paris and string together one nighters between festival gigs on weekends. That's all but gone, save some of the festivals (for which there's a lot of competition including international 'name' acts).
I mentioned that 26 gig tour in '03. Maybe a quarter of those venues (that were not culture centers) still remain and the great majority of those that do no longer have live music (or if they do, it can be a one night a week or a couple times a month thing). In fairness, there are some other clubs that have opened and have music more regularly but the net possibilities are still much reduced. This was all before covid and that finished off a lot of the clubs that still remained - which were struggling before. The 2020 tour, when it cancelled, the venues all wanted to rebook, but when the dust settled there were too few still standing to make it work when considering the road expenses for off days. Terms in a lot of the clubs still around are now much less favorable as well.

As an anecdote, an American singer/guitar player I've played with who has a great list of who he's played with including a ton of soul greats - he even did a stint playing bass with James Brown as well as keyboards with Harold Melvin and The Blue Notes - super talented - had been living in Malaga (Spain) for about 25 years. Big tourist spot and when he got there he was playing pretty much every night with a band he put together there (and he also fronted the Vargas Blues Band in Spain and toured a lot with them - very popular band at the time, opened for Santana, etc). The live venues dried up on Malaga switching to DJs and he was reduced to solo vocal/guitar/band in a box backing track dinner sets in hotels. He since returned to the the US.

Also the culture of the local bar/hang out that has live music regularly is just much less a thing - I really miss having that from back in the US; where it was possible to have an every Tuesday night (or whatever) gig and build band chemistry. Also multi night gigs are much less common than they were in the US (it really doesn't make sense to me - I remember being in California and we'd do Fri-Sat hits out in the sticks and ALWAYS had way more people the second night as people would return with friends). That's been really rare here IME.

Of course, music still happens and has always been tough... @djmay is absolutely correct that music is a great way to connect with locals and can really enrich the overall experience. If teaching English is your main gig and you don't have financial expectations attached to playing music, it could be great. Or maybe you'll defy the odds and get that K pop gig! Stranger things have happened - I just played in a Bollywood movie in Poland - so anything is possible...

He's also right about Ukraine and Ukraine has visa free travel for US citizens and would be much more lax in terms of getting legal.

MuseChaser said:
Yeah... These days, when I'm abroad, keeping the "I'm American" vibe on the QT has been highly advisable... Bass player or not. We toured Italy with our big band a few months ago. Folks were receptive during the concerts in Rome and other places, and had some great hangs in Rome with really nice local folks, but Florence, and even more so Venice, wasn't exactly overflowing with folks glad to have Americans there. ESPECIALLY Venice.
Click to expand...

In fairness, Venice is completely overrun with more tourists (from everywhere) than locals (for real). Not surprising that people who's families have been there for 100s of years have been displaced for AirBnBs, etc. have some resentments.
 
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#16
superheavyfunk said:
I can’t speak to this broadly but I can say that if you end up in Japan, you likely won’t end up in Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto or likely any other big cultural hub as an English teacher, unless you’re already connected with a large company and can at least partly speak the language. You’re much more likely to end up in a small town somewhere. Might make the prospect of playing music full time a bit difficult.

頑張ってね！
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree; living costs are much lower in the rural areas, and distance is no problem because of the excellent transportation network.
 
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#17
woodsracer said:
So the question is, are there certain places in the world where I might have the best chances?
Click to expand...

Going abroad in order to find a small enough pond to be a big fish in doesn’t strike me as being a good strategy for success. Highly skilled, creative and talented musicians can be found in every corner of the globe. Being just one more is no big advantage.

Based on my own observations over the years there’s basically only two factors that lead to success in the music performance world. First, be very good at what you do. Second, be very lucky.

I’m assuming you’re already good at bass playing. So about all I can do is wish you good luck. :)
 
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#20
The logic doesn't entirely add up to me:

To make money from music you need a lively local scene... and to make a local scene you need skilled local musicians. I think?!

So I'm just not sure where you would find somewhere with plentiful gigs but somehow a lack of bass players. Or maybe there is such a place!

By all means travel/work overseas and play music - great plan. But I'm not convinced it will provide any kind of leg up in terms of musical success.
 
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