"Making it" internationally

[turf3]

I don't have any international music performance experience, but I do know that getting gigs is all about connections. It seems to me that making those kinds of connections, hard enough for an American in America in the place where he's lived for 20 years, will have an added layer of challenge with a language barrier and culture barriers ranging from the relatively modest (American in England) to the large (American in Japan). Are you a social? Super extroverted, yet able to read the room and tone your approach to local norms?

I have also read - and another poster alluded to this with reference to the fact that governments reallly do check visa status and it's much harder to fly under the radar - that at least in Japan, "English Teacher" is/was mostly under-table work, likely to involve all kinds of scut work, and without legal status. So immediate deportation was always hanging over a large number of those "English teachers". OK for a 20-something that just wants to live in a foreign country for awhile, live on ramen noodles and weak green tea, no assets, no plans, just hangin'. Not so OK if you have assets and career plans.

 

[Michedelic]

Good luck. I think everybody should be required to live abroad for some time. The world would be a much, much different place

Even to just visit, as long as they can behave themselves. Unfortunately, those who could benefit the most from the experience are the ones most resistant.

 

[micguy]

One of the guys I used to work with is in a heavy metal band. He's a phenomenal guitarist, and the band is really good. They are "bigger" in Germany than they are here in the States - his band goes on short tours in Germany because of that, and then....he comes back and goes to work, so he can afford the next tour.

Getting paid to play isn't terribly difficult. Getting paid enough to support yourself in a decent fashion...is. The usual route is characterized by dismal failure, followed by regular failure, followed by minor failure, followed by breaking even, followed by modest success, and....so on. Persistence is key, no matter who you are or how good you are.

As to where you might have the most success, that depends a lot on the genre you are playing in - you need to find a place where there are other people that are good and dedicated to work with. "Music cities" - in the US that's LA and Nashville (In Europe I don't know) are places where there is a lot of individual competition, but also a lot of people to collaborate with. In the middle of Kansas, there is no competition, but you'll be trying to make a living as a solo bassist, which is VERY tough.

 

[mcnach]

One of the guys I used to work with is in a heavy metal band. He's a phenomenal guitarist, and the band is really good. They are "bigger" in Germany than they are here in the States - his band goes on short tours in Germany because of that, and then....he comes back and goes to work, so he can afford the next tour.

Is he in Anvil?

 

[J Posega]

I think you'd have better luck getting hired as a cruise ship musician than somehow landing in the right city with the right scene and the right musicians that speak enough English for you to get by.

EDIT: Just saying, approaching this from the perspective of "I'm American and that's different so it might get me hired over someone else" is the sort of egotism that makes a lot of non-Americans hate Americans.

 

[ardgedee]

Just for perspective, I hate K pop but if I could make money (and meet tons of ladies doing it) I would totally be down!!

If that's your ambition, study how the industry works. Because broadly speaking, the agencies that are successful enough to retain session musicians as full-time staff are also fiercely protective of their talent -- if you touch one of the idols, you're fired and blacklisted. And you will not exist to the fans of boy bands, their eyes are fixed firmly on the guys singing and dancing.

 

[Hawk256]

I've been an expat in many different countires over the past 20 years. I don't think it helps to get gigs being American. If anything it makes it harder.

Getting a proper residence permit is a major deal and is much easier in some countries than others. That leaves the work permit, which is even more difficult.

Tons of native English speakers ready to work for cheap in foreign coutries. Without proper certification and YEARS of experience, you can count on a questionale employer. Also a work permit usually only covers one job. To make money playing gigs you would need a permit for that as well.

It's not as easy as it sounds. You don't want to end up in foreign jail owing money to authorties for skirting the rules. It's not worth it. With all that being said. Best of luck to you.

 

[friskinator]

Does anyone "make it" as a musician anymore, regardless of where they live?

 

[Dynacord]

I think you'd have better luck getting hired as a cruise ship musician than somehow landing in the right city with the right scene and the right musicians that speak enough English for you to get by.

EDIT: Just saying, approaching this from the perspective of "I'm American and that's different so it might get me hired over someone else" is the sort of egotism that makes a lot of non-Americans hate Americans.

The cruise ship comment reminds me that as far as the live music scene, tribute bands take up an increasingly big percentage of what's left in much of Europe.

 

[Medicine Man]

I don't think it is any easier to make it as a musician outside the US. I played in a band when I lived in Germany back in the 90s and had all the same struggles as trying to launch a band here. I imagine it isn't easier these days from what they tell me. If you want to expat, having professional credentials and learning where they can transfer to is key. Or a job you can work remote from another country. I support your dream, but recommend having a better plan for income.

 

[jimmydean]

Why not give it a go ? If you have the proper Work Visa and that job teaching.......go for it !

 

[turf3]

Why not give it a go ? If you have the proper Work Visa and that job teaching.......go for it !

Keep in mind, in most countries a work visa is narrowly drawn for your particular employer and position, because they have to be able to state that no locals could be hired. Thus the improved likelihood of being hired as an English teacher, versus a plumber. There aren't very many native English speakers in Japan (as an example) but they've got plenty of plumbers.

Depending on how the income tax scenario and other such things are handled in the foreign country, you may have great difficulty in getting paid except under the table for gigs for which your work visa isn't targeted. Most countries try to make sure their own citizens have employment first, before allowing foreigners to work; where are the countries that are undersupplied with bass guitarists?

 

[jimmydean]

I had the same idea back in the mid 80's when I moved to England . Played a little and ended up back in the US , but well worth the effort . If you don't try .....you will never know .

 

[Dynacord]

Depending on how the income tax scenario and other such things are handled in the foreign country, you may have great difficulty in getting paid except under the table for gigs for which your work visa isn't targeted.

And getting paid under the table is really rare today, at least in my experience. Almost all venues want an invoice of one kind or another and payment is more and more often electronic rather than a wad of cash from behind the bar.

 

[turf3]

And getting paid under the table is really rare today, at least in my experience. Almost all venues want an invoice of one kind or another and payment is more and more often electronic rather than a wad of cash from behind the bar.

I guess it depends on where you are. I'd expect you'd be more likely to get paid cash without reporting in Nigeria than in Germany, for example.

 

[Dynacord]

I guess it depends on where you are. I'd expect you'd be more likely to get paid cash without reporting in Nigeria than in Germany, for example.

Absolutely. I'm contrasting experience in the EU vs past experience in the US. I can't speak for other places but you're surely right.

 

[Panek]

Places that would idealize having an American dude in their band to up my chances of success?

Just in case you're wondering I'd like to say we're at full capacity here. But good luck on your endeavors!

 

[Dynacord]

Just in case you're wondering I'd like to say we're at full capacity here. But good luck on your endeavors!

Can confirm. Poz.

 

[woodsracer]

Hey all, thank you so much for the responses. Really great to hear a variety of thoughts, there is a lot of good stuff here. Sounds to me like concentrating on getting a solid ESL job lined up in a city that has a music scene I'm into (and being in a place I could really enjoy in terms of culture, food, etc) is the best route, as opposed to choosing a place based on trying to gain an "advantage" so to speak. A lot of my interest is just to have an awesome life experience and see where it goes, but the idea was if I could potentially have better success in a place like the Ukraine vs Spain (interesting suggestion on Ukraine), maybe that would be higher on my list. Sounds like consensus is that there is little to no benefit to any one place over the other, but that does seem counterintuitive to me.

Comments like "this is the egotism that makes people hate Americans", makes it seems like you're responding to a post that reads "I'm American, therefore I'm a badass and deserve to be prioritized" which is not the case and so it's not helpful in this discussion. I know there is some level of advantage in being American in certain places, in the same way that I would pursue a "decent" looking Swedish girl over her "hot" American friends at the bar. I'm not all that different than a lot of people who have a higher level of interest in people from different cultures because they are an opportunity to learn a lot about the world, and have something different and exotic about them. Would I want to play with a drummer from Germany over one of similar skills that is American? Hard to say. Many around the world idolize American music, movies, TV shows, etc so it's natural to think you might have some additional opportunities as a foreigner in those fields. And like I said, I have been to 24 countries in my life and have directly had this experience. More so in South America, less so in northern Europe, for example. So in my experience there does seem to be more opportunity in some places vs others. Doesn't need to be an us vs. them thing, I'm seeking information here.

Another note on opportunity, no I do not have a TEFL certificate yet and will be looking into visa requirements as well (great points on this). I do have a PhD in engineering and have done a lot of teaching, so point taken on having fewer opportunities in large cities but I do think I would be a desirable candidate for a good teaching position. I am also looking into teaching physics and math (or tutoring), there are advantages to this vs. teaching English but is much more commitment. There was a comment on having a "better plan" before I do anything, but like I said in the first post, I am trying to make a change and go for adventure, and I guess I do have confidence I can make something work. But yes I will have a solid plan before making any moves. Just a little background, I am 37 and have been doing weapons development for the federal government at a national lab for almost a decade and feel like I need to do something different now or I'll be pigeon holed in this career for the long term. Just feel like I need to do something and maybe take some risks now or I never will.

Anyway, thanks for the insight everyone, keep it coming!

 

[Dynacord]

Hey all, thank you so much for the responses. Really great to hear a variety of thoughts, there is a lot of good stuff here. Sounds to me like concentrating on getting a solid ESL job lined up in a city that has a music scene I'm into (and being in a place I could really enjoy in terms of culture, food, etc) is the best route, as opposed to choosing a place based on trying to gain an "advantage" so to speak. A lot of my interest is just to have an awesome life experience and see where it goes, but the idea was if I could potentially have better success in a place like the Ukraine vs Spain (interesting suggestion on Ukraine), maybe that would be higher on my list. Sounds like consensus is that there is little to no benefit to any one place over the other, but that does seem counterintuitive to me.

Comments like "this is the egotism that makes people hate Americans", makes it seems like you're responding to a post that reads "I'm American, therefore I'm a badass and deserve to be prioritized" which is not the case and so it's not helpful in this discussion. I know there is some level of advantage in being American in certain places, in the same way that I would pursue a "decent" looking Swedish girl over her "hot" American friends at the bar. I'm not all that different than a lot of people who have a higher level of interest in people from different cultures because they are an opportunity to learn a lot about the world, and have something different and exotic about them. Would I want to play with a drummer from Germany over one of similar skills that is American? Hard to say. Many around the world idolize American music, movies, TV shows, etc so it's natural to think you might have some additional opportunities as a foreigner in those fields. And like I said, I have been to 24 countries in my life and have directly had this experience. More so in South America, less so in northern Europe, for example. So in my experience there does seem to be more opportunity in some places vs others. Doesn't need to be an us vs. them thing, I'm seeking information here.

Another note on opportunity, no I do not have a TEFL certificate yet and will be looking into visa requirements as well (great points on this). I do have a PhD in engineering and have done a lot of teaching, so point taken on having fewer opportunities in large cities but I do think I would be a desirable candidate for a good teaching position. I am also looking into teaching physics and math (or tutoring), there are advantages to this vs. teaching English but is much more commitment. There was a comment on having a "better plan" before I do anything, but like I said in the first post, I am trying to make a change and go for adventure, and I guess I do have confidence I can make something work. But yes I will have a solid plan before making any moves. Just a little background, I am 37 and have been doing weapons development for the federal government at a national lab for almost a decade and feel like I need to do something different now or I'll be pigeon holed in this career for the long term. Just feel like I need to do something and maybe take some risks now or I never will.

Anyway, thanks for the insight everyone, keep it coming!

On the rural vs urban issues, if you're able to teach math, physics, engineering, teaching at an international/American/Canadian/English school could be an option and one where the employer would be motivated to assist with permit. English teachers are sort of a dime a dozen but those more specialized skills (in English) are likely in demand and, while more commitment, would be better compensated. That's thinking primary/high school but higher ed could be possible too though more requirements. A lot of European universities conduct classes in English.