Markbass Amp repair?

[Mike Dimin]

The preamp board on a LM II looks pretty straight forward. Single channel, surface mounted pots. Even if it is a double layer PC board, built in the US, it's not more than $50.00 to manufacture. Of course, this means 150 retail.

Now I can only speak for EA, but we do not charge retail to replace a board. IMO (please note that this is ONLY MY OPINION). I think it is criminal to charge retail to replace a part, even if it out of warranty.

 

[anonymous02282011]

That was about the most successful bass gear product launch that I can recall.

Do you have source, or is this just like, your opinion man?

 

[Mike Dimin]

How on Earth do you draw that conclusion?
And even if it was correct just because they get it for one price does not mean they are or have to sell it to a repair facility for the same price.
A new car sells for, let's say $25,000. Do you really believe that you could buy the individual parts for that car and that would equal $25,000 or less? Hell no! More like double that. Do you really think that Chevy or Ford or Toyota is going to sell their parts to a repair facility or even their own dealers for the same price they get them? I think not. If you want some accurate info on how the electronics repair industry works I would be glad to offer it as I have been in that business since the early 70s. I am retired now so maybe it has changed drastically in the last 4 years although I doubt it.

Sorry - lousy comparison. Car parts are supposed to wear out. The cost of replacement parts are figured into the long range income projections. Dealers make very little on the sale of the car, their profit comes from service and parts.

A well designed and manufactured amp should be serviceable for a very long time (tube amps excepted) with no service or parts replacements needed. Dirty jacks and pots, yes ...board replacement - not so much

 

[JimmyM]

I agree with this... even if it was after the fact they could've done something besides make it up on the next problem... who says there will be a next probleme(the response from Peter Murray in that link) . As a company, I would've addressed it if wasn't representative of my policies, even if I wasn't at fault.

you know, i forgot about that. that is a BIG copout to say "it's too late to help you now, but..."

OF COURSE IT'S NOT TOO LATE! you're the product rep for the company and you have the ear of the owner, you can do pretty much anything you want. you can issue refunds after the fact, you can lower the price to reasonable standards, etc. you don't pontificate on your low failure rate and possibility of "user error." when it's your turn in the barrel, low failure rate can fongool.

 

[Mike Dimin]

Bad news travels much faster and farther than good. But then we probably wouldn't have these threads.

I see "issues" all the time posted here, before a dealer or manufacturer is contacted. The thing that drives me nuts is that most of the time it is "pilot error" then they are too embarrassed to publicly admit that they messed up, so they let the thread continue.

For a manufacturer, it is a no win situation. You just sit back and cringe

 

[JimmyM]

I just don't think so. A loss leader really only works when the consumer buys other products as well. Perhaps GC used it as a loss leader, but not MB. For MB, it just does not make sense

i was thinking the same thing. people who buy amps usually hang onto them for a long time, and aren't prone to buying multiples, ken jung and tom bowlus aside loss leaders are small items that hook you into buying expensive items. they don't make you satisfied enough with the smaller item that you don't buy anything else.

 

[Mike Dimin]

Although I do not think that we ever actually wrote this down, at EA. Our goal has always been to help out our customer to the best of our ability as fairly as possible. We do not define customer has someone who necessarily bought it new, or is still under warranty. The fact is that there is a player who needs their gear. treat them they way you want to be treated.

There is no reason to have a negative conversation about MB. They know, as well as I do that if I go out of the way to make someone happy it will sell more gear. If I piss someone off than that 1 will tell 10 and those 10 will each tell 3 more (AND ALL WILL POST ON SOME DIFFERENT INTERNET MUSIC FORUM)


If one person does not buy MB products because of this thread, it is one too many - everyone in this industry knows that all too well. This internet thingy has made too many "experts" in the field. We no longer look for qualified opinions - any a$$hole's opinion will suffice - think I could have said that if I still worked for EA

 

[JimmyM]

There is no reason to have a negative conversation about MB. They know, as well as I do that if I go out of the way to make someone happy it will sell more gear. If I piss someone off than that 1 will tell 10 and those 10 will each tell 3 more (AND ALL WILL POST ON SOME DIFFERENT INTERNET MUSIC FORUM)


If one person does not buy MB products because of this thread, it is one too many - everyone in this industry knows that all too well. This internet thingy has made too many "experts" in the field. We no longer look for qualified opinions - any a$$hole's opinion will suffice - think I could have said that if I still worked for EA

well mike, it's a changing world out there, and the internet makes it really easy to complain to a world ready to hear it. but i doubt seriously if conversations like this hurt any company very much, if at all. i still see plenty of posters talk about picking up their new markbass amps. however, i do agree that people should take it to the company directly before going to the net. i did that once...actually took it to the company but they weren't getting my messages because of a spam filter glitch. didn't know, so i took it on here...felt really bad when the company head handled it in a very professional manner once we figured out the problem. but i came on here again and said so, which i think is the responsibility of anyone who does it.

anyway, www.pedaldoctor.com ... good guy

 

[aborgman]

How on Earth do you draw that conclusion?

Several years of designing, debugging, maintaining, and costing multi layer PCBs.

If you want some accurate info on how the electronics repair industry works I would be glad to offer it as I have been in that business since the early 70s. I am retired now so maybe it has changed drastically in the last 4 years although I doubt it.

As an Electrical Engineer with over 10 years in the industry - including specifically designing and costing PCBs for consumer products - I think I have a pretty good grasp on what kind of costs we're talking about.

I had to, considering I was instrumental in setting board replacement costs and product prices.

 

[aborgman]

No, it doesn't. And this is exactly what I was talking about. For example, do you understand what a loss leader is? If you do and it happens that that's what these are, your calculation makes no sense, nothing more than another WAG.

For their single board costs to be over $100 - they'd have to be selling at a HUGE loss.

If their single board costs are over $100, then that amp is costing them at least 50% more than it is retailing for to build. That would be one heck of a loss leader.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Do you have source, or is this just like, your opinion man?

Nice try.


My source is all of the people I see using Markbass gear, here, elsewhere on the internet and in real life. Plus all of the Markbass gear up for sale used... it had to be purchased new at some point. In a relatively short period of time business-wise they attained a very sizable piece of the market.

If you have, even in your opinion, a candidate for that kind of relative market establishment, lay it on me. None of their competitors grabbed the market as widely and quickly.

 

[Brad Johnson]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Funny.


If you're saying I'm changing the facts or circumstances, I'll let that stand on it's own merit. Too easy.

I just like to keep guessing to a minimum. Guess that makes me the odd man out.

 

[JimmyM]

Nice try.


My source is all of the people I see using Markbass gear, here, elsewhere on the internet and in real life. Plus all of the Markbass gear up for sale used... it had to be purchased new at some point. In a relatively short period of time business-wise they attained a very sizable piece of the market.

If you have, even in your opinion, a candidate for that kind of relative market establishment, lay it on me. None of their competitors grabbed the market as widely and quickly.

this i have to agree with. after all, markbass has won many amp polls, and even edged out the svt for best amp in bp a year ago. you don't get that kind of result without selling a buttload.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I just don't think so. A loss leader really only works when the consumer buys other products as well. Perhaps GC used it as a loss leader, but not MB. For MB, it just does not make sense

How many hands did Little Mark II's get into at $600? What other 500w amp was selling for $600? What other sub 7 lb. 500w amp was selling for $600?

At the time they could've sold those amps for $800-$900 and been well within the wheelhouse of their competition, undercutting most for the size, price and perfomance triumvirate. Maybe people forget what occupied the space the LMII played in? At $800 they probably wouldn't have sold as many and no I don't have a source for that, it should be common sense. What was EA's offering at the time selling for? Thunderfunk? Eden, SWR, Genz Benz, etc.?

So the market got inundated with LMII heads, that got people interested in the brand and they had several other models that sold well too, all at higher prices. F1s, SD800s, all sorts of cabs and combos, they all sold. That sure looks like consumers buying other products to me... and even better, from the same manufacturer. It makes a lot of sense to me. YMMV

 

[JimmyM]

going to start that wheelhouse crap again, eh?



well i'm not going to get into an argument whether the lmii was a loss leader or not, but all i can say i can't see how it could be a loss leader when the vast majority of people only bought one amp. could they have kept the price low just to get market a market positioning jump over the competition? maybe. but i seriously doubt if they lost a cent, and i think they probably made a fortune on it. but if people would like to think of it as a loss leader, i can't stop them. i just don't see how it's possible.

 

[Brad Johnson]

i was thinking the same thing. people who buy amps usually hang onto them for a long time, and aren't prone to buying multiples, ken jung and tom bowlus aside loss leaders are small items that hook you into buying expensive items. they don't make you satisfied enough with the smaller item that you don't buy anything else.

A loss leader, or a magnet type item if people understand that better, main purpose is to get people in stores.

If there was no $600 sub 7 lb. amp, many people wouldn't have set foot in GC. A loss leader is not about everyone buying that product, it's about coming in and buying OTHER products. Isn't that what a lot of people did?

Loss leaders don't have to be smaller items, they just need to be heavily discounted vs. what they should sell for. Other businesses do it all the time... on the upper end, advertise the $3000 plasma TV for half price, people will come in and check it out, most people won't buy it, many will buy TV's closer to what they can afford while they're in the store. This ain't new.

I'm surprised that neither of you seems to see this as a possibilty. It's basic retail business.

At the time Markbass could've asked for a lot more than they did for the LMII. Nobody wonders why? I did... and I thought the pricing was brilliant.

 

[Brad Johnson]

going to start that wheelhouse crap again, eh?

I can't help that some people lead sheltered live... including not knowing how to use the Google.

well i'm not going to get into an argument whether the lmii was a loss leader or not, but all i can say i can't see how it could be a loss leader when the vast majority of people only bought one amp. could they have kept the price low just to get market a market positioning jump over the competition? maybe. but i seriously doubt if they lost a cent, and i think they probably made a fortune on it. but if people would like to think of it as a loss leader, i can't stop them. i just don't see how it's possible.

It's not an argument, I don't know whether they did or not. Neither does anyone else so far.

A loss leader doesn't mean you literally lose money. You could just break even.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Personally I don't see the LMII as a loss leader. The combos that included the LMII head are in line with the price of a LMII head plus the respective cabinet. That would mean that the LMII and it's derivative combos were all loss leaders. While possible, I find that unlikely.

Just an opinion.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I see "issues" all the time posted here, before a dealer or manufacturer is contacted. The thing that drives me nuts is that most of the time it is "pilot error" then they are too embarrassed to publicly admit that they messed up, so they let the thread continue.

For a manufacturer, it is a no win situation. You just sit back and cringe

As a manufacturer you actually can win. It all depends on how you handle it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

you know, i forgot about that. that is a BIG copout to say "it's too late to help you now, but..."

OF COURSE IT'S NOT TOO LATE! you're the product rep for the company and you have the ear of the owner, you can do pretty much anything you want. you can issue refunds after the fact, you can lower the price to reasonable standards, etc. you don't pontificate on your low failure rate and possibility of "user error." when it's your turn in the barrel, low failure rate can fongool.

That kind of stuff (if that's truly all that transpired) drove me crazy as it related to CS in the jobs I've had. Thinking beyond the moment is almost a lost art. Some people get it, some get it too late, some never get it at all.

I used to think that this was no-brainer stuff from a business POV. I'm bottom line minded when it comes to business myself but you always have to ask yourself what is in the best interest of the company as far as how you handle an issue. If I had to eat a repair over some confusion, so be it (not saying that's what should've happened in this case minus more specifics). I've often turned unhappy customers into some of my most loyal and they tell others so.

If this was as simple as it appears, eating some of the cost and then making sure policy was clear and very upfront for everyone would likely have only helped MB's bottom line, not planted a bad seed. Just my opinion.

Again, I'd say this about any company in the same boat.