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Markbass power handling

chastao

chastao

Sep 13, 2009
29
7
79
MA
#1
Hello All,
I typically play with a 4-piece "commercial jazz" band, a big band, and sub with other rock,jazz,etc ... groups.
I have a Markbass tube 800 head powering a Markbass Traveler 102 cab. (also have 2 NY 112s, a NY 115, and a Gk neo212)
I use the 2-10 cab mostly ... great sound, response, portability. The rig sounds GREAT at low to moderate volumes. ... however ...
The Problem:
When I need to really crank it up and play with a strong attack , the speaker "flaps ". I did not expect this since the amp is rated at 400 watts into 8 ohms AND the speaker is rated to handle 400 watts.
I originally blamed the 210 cab, but the same break-down happens using one of my 12" cabs (also rated for 400 watts)
(... also happens using a different bass on active or passive and using my Peavey miniMax backup amp)
Question:
Is this common? I expected more from Mark Bass stuff ... beginning to think I made a mistake going "all in" on MarkBass. ...
Any recommendations for a lightweight small rig that sounds clean and punchy at low volumes but can also kick a 20 piece band at FFF when needed?
Am I chasing a unicorn here?
Thanks,
Charlie,
MM Stingray Frettless,
MM stingray 4-string,
Fender Precision (Mexican active p/j)
 
#2
Keep in mind that the 400 watt power rating on the cabinet is simply just the thermal rating of the speakers. It just gives you an idea how much power they can take before they melt.

What you are describing is a mechanical problem...you are simply pushing the speakers beyond their limits. A lot of this has to do with EQ settings, pedals used, basses used, etc.

Quite simply, you don't have enough speakers to cover what you want to do. Adding another 2x10 will get you there.
 
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#4
chastao said:
When I need to really crank it up and play with a strong attack , the speaker "flaps ".
Click to expand...

I'm pretty confident that if you take any amp and cab with reasonably similar wattage figures (for whatever those are worth), and then you "really crank it up and play with a strong attack," there is going to be a reasonable probability that you are going to get the speakers to "flap" and have possible concerns of causing damage.

If you want to be able to play with a strong attack at higher volume levels, without worrying about your amp and speakers, you're going to want an amp that has lots of power (so that you can run it at mild settings and still get plenty of volume) and plenty of speaker surface area (again so you can more easily get the volume at mild settings), in order to maximize headroom and keep everything running smoothly. Edit: Obviously this isn't exactly the case if you're in the "pushing a tube amp hard to get a gritty sound" crowd, but that is different than what it sounds like you are going for (and those guys are generally going to be using large cabs anyway).

P.S. I play rock/metal at very high stage-volume levels with a very strong attack, and my Markbass 4x10s handle it as good or better as any other cabs I've ever played.
 
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#6
chastao said:
Hello All,
I typically play with a 4-piece "commercial jazz" band, a big band, and sub with other rock,jazz,etc ... groups.
I have a Markbass tube 800 head powering a Markbass Traveler 102 cab. (also have 2 NY 112s, a NY 115, and a Gk neo212)
I use the 2-10 cab mostly ... great sound, response, portability. The rig sounds GREAT at low to moderate volumes. ... however ...
The Problem:
When I need to really crank it up and play with a strong attack , the speaker "flaps ". I did not expect this since the amp is rated at 400 watts into 8 ohms AND the speaker is rated to handle 400 watts.
I originally blamed the 210 cab, but the same break-down happens using one of my 12" cabs (also rated for 400 watts)
(... also happens using a different bass on active or passive and using my Peavey miniMax backup amp)
Question:
Is this common? I expected more from Mark Bass stuff ... beginning to think I made a mistake going "all in" on MarkBass. ...
Any recommendations for a lightweight small rig that sounds clean and punchy at low volumes but can also kick a 20 piece band at FFF when needed?
Am I chasing a unicorn here?
Thanks,
Charlie,
MM Stingray Frettless,
MM stingray 4-string,
Fender Precision (Mexican active p/j)
Click to expand...
Here you are with a thread that provides information that might help to fix your issue.
btw, unfortunatelly for ever what reason the thread did not get much of response.
Transient noise and what it means to woofer excursion
 
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#9
If a speaker obviously "flaps" due to mechanical overload then an additional speaker helps to reduce cone excursion by about 50%.
My crystal ball fails to tell if 50% off of cone excursion helps to reduce driver excusion just to steady stay within Xmax limits.

In practice a HPF helps very efficiently to protect woofers from (random) "flapping"

edit, may be its a good idea to add another cab AND protect the system with a HPF.
 
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#10
chastao said:
Hello All,
I typically play with a 4-piece "commercial jazz" band, a big band, and sub with other rock,jazz,etc ... groups.
I have a Markbass tube 800 head powering a Markbass Traveler 102 cab. (also have 2 NY 112s, a NY 115, and a Gk neo212)
I use the 2-10 cab mostly ... great sound, response, portability. The rig sounds GREAT at low to moderate volumes. ... however ...
The Problem:
When I need to really crank it up and play with a strong attack , the speaker "flaps ". I did not expect this since the amp is rated at 400 watts into 8 ohms AND the speaker is rated to handle 400 watts.
I originally blamed the 210 cab, but the same break-down happens using one of my 12" cabs (also rated for 400 watts)
(... also happens using a different bass on active or passive and using my Peavey miniMax backup amp)
Question:
Is this common? I expected more from Mark Bass stuff ... beginning to think I made a mistake going "all in" on MarkBass. ...
Any recommendations for a lightweight small rig that sounds clean and punchy at low volumes but can also kick a 20 piece band at FFF when needed?
Am I chasing a unicorn here?
Thanks,
Charlie,
MM Stingray Frettless,
MM stingray 4-string,
Fender Precision (Mexican active p/j)
Click to expand...


What are your settings on the amp?
 
#11
thanks for the suggestions.
Few more specifics ... I do not have the amp cranked all the way up on 10 ... it's loud, but the volume is only on ~6 ... I'm playing the Fender bass which has 18 volt active electronics ... could be contributing?
I like the 2 12s ... just trying to pare down the kit
 
#12
chastao said:
Hello All,
I typically play with a 4-piece "commercial jazz" band, a big band, and sub with other rock,jazz,etc ... groups.
I have a Markbass tube 800 head powering a Markbass Traveler 102 cab. (also have 2 NY 112s, a NY 115, and a Gk neo212)
I use the 2-10 cab mostly ... great sound, response, portability. The rig sounds GREAT at low to moderate volumes. ... however ...
The Problem:
When I need to really crank it up and play with a strong attack , the speaker "flaps ". I did not expect this since the amp is rated at 400 watts into 8 ohms AND the speaker is rated to handle 400 watts.
I originally blamed the 210 cab, but the same break-down happens using one of my 12" cabs (also rated for 400 watts)
(... also happens using a different bass on active or passive and using my Peavey miniMax backup amp)
Question:
Is this common? I expected more from Mark Bass stuff ... beginning to think I made a mistake going "all in" on MarkBass. ...
Any recommendations for a lightweight small rig that sounds clean and punchy at low volumes but can also kick a 20 piece band at FFF when needed?
Am I chasing a unicorn here?
Thanks,
Charlie,
MM Stingray Frettless,
MM stingray 4-string,
Fender Precision (Mexican active p/j)
Click to expand...
I think you're expecting too much from a 2x10" cab. I had an Aguilar DB210, a stout cab by any standard but it struggled beyond moderately loud.
The solution for me is 2x12s.
Not much larger and dramatically more output.
 
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#13
Great suggestions already. I think the markbass stuff is very good, but you are asking a lot of a small 2x10 cab. I personally would first try putting the cab up higher so you can hear it better at lower volumes and maybe back off the bass a little and substitute it with low mids instead. If that no workie, I would get another 102p and stack them vertically. If that no workie, I would get a pair of their 2x12 cabs and stack them vertically. I have a pair of TC Electronic BC212 cabs and a Little Mark 250 and at half volume I can't hear the drummer anymore. If you need more volume than that maybe you should think about telling everyone else to turn that noise down.

Edit: I reread the OP, I would stick the NY115 underneath and keep the 102p vertical on top.
 
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#14
Papuzzo said:
Great suggestions already. I think the markbass stuff is very good, but you are asking a lot of a small 2x10 cab. I personally would first try putting the cab up higher so you can hear it better at lower volumes and maybe back off the bass a little and substitute it with low mids instead. If that no workie, I would get another 102p and stack them vertically. If that no workie, I would get a pair of their 2x12 cabs and stack them vertically. I have a pair of TC Electronic BC212 cabs and a Little Mark 250 and at half volume I can't hear the drummer anymore. If you need more volume than that maybe you should think about telling everyone else to turn that noise down.

Edit: I reread the OP, I would stick the NY115 underneath and keep the 102p vertical on top.
Click to expand...

Got me ... I found this problem when our regular drummer was out and we had a sub who plays much "thicker" ...
AND ... another reason I like the 2-10 cab for small band gigs is because the band leader gets nervous when he sees me carrying in more than one speaker cab ... need a small high powered rig that still sounds great at low volume ... that being said, the Mark Bass setup is the best I've found so far ... I just was concerned when I first noticed the flapping.
CT
 
#15
Two ways of destroying a speaker are melting the voice coil (eg. 2000 watt amp to 400 watt speaker) but likely before that happens the speakers will rip from excursion (moving back and forth). The mistake I made before coming to this forum was thinking an amp's power is linear based on the volume button which may not be the case and eq on the amp (bass boosted) can ruin a speaker. As suggested before, remove some of the bass and add more mids to see if it's a sound you can enjoy when only bringing the 210. If not, you'll likely need to bring more speakers - the 15" may do it and also gives a support so the 210 is closer to your ears.
 
#16
You must really be pushing those cabs, I play metal, loudly, I used to have the Traveler 2x10 and a pair of NY115 plus a Standard 210...I have used them all in various combinations but they never let me down...
amps.jpg
 
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#18
chastao said:
at half volume I can't hear the drummer anymore.
Click to expand...
that's a great feature.
chastao said:
I do not have the amp cranked all the way up on 10 ... it's loud, but the volume is only on ~6
Click to expand...
let's make some assumptions, if 5 on the volume knob is half of the wattage (most of the time it's not that simple) then you being at 6 is outputting more than half of the 800W the head is capable, into a cab 'rated' at 400W. We haven't even talked about ohms which play a part here too.

The more better answer is more and/or different cabs, even if you turn up only to 1 or 2 on the head none of your cabs are big and I think Mark cabs are over rated for their real world power handling. They sound the best at their sound, if you like it it's hard to find another cab that does it as well. I own the same head as you and I like it quite a lot, but I haven't and wouldn't buy any Mark cabs despite the fact I like the sound they produced at certain eq settings.
 
#19
Your amp must be very conservatively rated, and you are pushing the speaker too hard. Two 10s is just not enough cone area - add another cab.
Personally, I did not like the 2x10 and bought the 1x12 combo instead. Regardless, the cabs are all amazing, and scary loud.

In the old days, you would want your speakers rated for twice the power of your amp, to be able to safely handle peaks. That may still be a good idea.
 
#20
Bassamatic said:
In the old days, you would want your speakers rated for twice the power of your amp, to be able to safely handle peaks. That may still be a good idea.
Click to expand...
This was never really true, not for MI applications.

For MI applications, most manufacturers of drivers recommended (to cabinet manufacturers who expected warranty coverage of the driver) that the speaker be rated for 2X the amplifier's rated power in order to prevent both mechanical and thermal damage. The mechanical damage was due to cabinets not being tuned very well in general and thermal because it was common to drive an amp well into clipping which increased the average power delivered to the speaker.

Read paragraph 3C in this JBL paper for OEM manufacturers: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 

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