Double Bass Markbass vs. Aguilar for upright

[Barcza]

Except some new models, most of the Markbass amp not fit double bass well (without buffer preamp...) , because of the low input impedance! (500Kohms)
Aguilars are fine, but the AG500 or new AG700 are better for DB. I’m a long time Aguilar user...Had various Aggie gears, the SL112 is maybe the best Speaker what I ever played...

 

[oren]

Except some new models, most of the Markbass amp not fit double bass well (without buffer preamp...) , because of the low input impedance! (500Kohms)
Aguilars are fine, but the AG500 or new AG700 are better for DB. I’m a long time Aguilar user...Had various Aggie gears, the SL112 is maybe the best Speaker what I ever played...

My Markbass CMD 121P actually sounds better with my Realist Lifeline without a buffer than it does with one. I was not expecting that to be the case, and can’t explain it given the low inout impedance rating, but it is definitely true.

 

[Ric Vice]

Having some experience with impedance buffering, what I’ve discovered is that while a higher input impedance is desirable for piezo pickups, another
factor that’s equally important, is the EQ section of a particular amplifier. So, while all my Walter Woods had a 1Meg Ohm input impedance, they also had
a preamp section that could cut and boost frequency ranges complimentary to the timbre of a Double Bass. While GK 200MB sounded great with Double Bass
the MBE did not. Most amplifier designs set the input impedance somewhere between 1 Meg Ohm (GK, Walter Woods, et.al.) and 5 Meg Ohms (Phil Jones Bass, Mark Bass Micro Mark et.al.) and they all have preamps that compliment DB. Jess Oliver at Ampeg new this when he set up the B-15N with three input impedance in the early 60’s to accommodate various pickups (magnetic, ceramic, and microphone based) available at the time. As another example the Mark Bas Big Bang has a higher input impedance but the preamp isn’t complimentary for Double Bass. Just my observations.

 

[Jason Hollar]

@oren

I’ll chime in to say my Full Circle sounds just fine into my MarkBass CMD121p. I’ve used the Boss Bass EQ as a preamp extensively and more recently an older fdeck pre/hpf.

When the room / drummer is loud I prefer a preamp but for most polite volume gigs, it’s much easier to just plug & play.

 

[Barcza]

@oren

I’ll chime in to say my Full Circle sounds just fine into my MarkBass CMD121p. I’ve used the Boss Bass EQ as a preamp extensively and more recently an older fdeck pre/hpf.

When the room / drummer is loud I prefer a preamp but for most polite volume gigs, it’s much easier to just plug & play.

Boss pedals has 1Mohms input...
When You play quiet situation, probably hear the lows acoustically enough...

 

[Barcza]

My Markbass CMD 121P actually sounds better with my Realist Lifeline without a buffer than it does with one. I was not expecting that to be the case, and can’t explain it given the low inout impedance rating, but it is definitely true.

Realist pickup, as far as know doesn’t need as high impedance as other pickups, and it has a lot of lows....maybe not hurts so, when the lower impedance filter out some...

 

[Jason Hollar]

Boss pedals has 1Mohms input...
When You play quiet situation, probably hear the lows acoustically enough...

correct.

 

[Ric Vice]

Realist pickup, as far as know doesn’t need as high impedance as other pickups, and it has a lot of lows....maybe not hurts so, when the lower impedance filter out some...

With the Realist a 1 Meg Ohm input impedance, coupled with a preamp that’s complimentary to the timbre of a Double Bass will sound very good. Many
of the amplifiers we use are 1 Meg Ohm i.e. Acoustic Image, Aguilar, Ampeg, TC Electronics, Gallien Krueger, Euphonic Audio, Quilter, and Traynor.
Others like the Mark Bass Micro Mark are 5 Meg Ohms. So there only a few bass amps these days that are set at 500 K Ohms. That doesn’t mean that
a particular pickup won’t see some timbre benefit, from a higher impedance load. I preferred a 5 Meg Ohm load when I used a Realist Copper Foil pickup.
Walter Woods set the impedance load on his MI-100-8 to 1 Meg Ohm in the 1970’s and Ampeg had a different higher impedance load, on each of the three
inputs of the B-15N circa 1962.

 

[Barcza]

Markbass Nanomark and Big Bang heads has 2Mohms input, all other Markbass amps has 500Kohms.

 

[Zbysek]

Many
of the amplifiers we use are 1 Meg Ohm i.e. Acoustic Image, Aguilar, Ampeg, TC Electronics, Gallien Krueger, Euphonic Audio, Quilter, and Traynor.

Quilter Bass Bock 800, Bass Block 802 and Tone Block 202 have 2 MOhm input impedance listed on the Quilter web page...

 

[Ric Vice]

Quilter Bass Bock 800, Bass Block 802 and Tone Block 202 have 2 MOhm input impedance listed on the Quilter web page...

Ok, got that one wrong 2 Meg Ohms is great for piezo, I believe Göran Ehrlund set the Ehrlund Preamp for the EAP at 2 Meg Ohms.

 

[Zbysek]

Ok, got that one wrong 2 Meg Ohms is great for piezo, I believe Göran Ehrlund set the Ehrlund Preamp for the EAP at 2 Meg Ohms.

I don't have Quilter myself...so I can't say whether it works with piezo...

When I am using my Broughton HPF-DI with selectable input impedance, I usually set it higher (5 or 10 MOhm) for my piezo-equipped NSD EUB...

 

[Barcza]

I don't have Quilter myself...so I can't say whether it works with piezo...

When I am using my Broughton HPF-DI with selectable input impedance, I usually set it higher (5 or 10 MOhm) for my piezo-equipped NSD EUB...

Fishman recommends 1Mohns to 10Mohms for their PUs....

 

[Ric Vice]

Fishman recommends 1Mohns to 10Mohms for their PUs....

While that may be true, Fishman sets all their Platinum series preamps to 10 Meg Ohms. Below are the specifications for the Platinum Pro Preamp. Rick Jones of Acoustic Image also concur's. IME both the Full Circle and Especially the BP-100 ( which is not a great sounding pickup regardless of the input impedance) need 10 Meg Ohms.

Specifications

Input impedance: 10M Ohms Input
trim gain range: -6dB to +14dB
Amp Output: Level: -∞ to +6dBV
Output Impedance: 1k Ohms XLR D.I.
Output: Level (pre EQ): -10 dB relative to input Level (post EQ): 0 dB relative to input
Output Impedance: 600 Ohms Baseline noise: -90dBA
Dynamic range: 95dBA
Tone Controls: Low Cut control: 10Hz to 160Hz
Bass control: ±12dB @ 115Hz (guitar) ±12dB @ 85Hz (bass)
Middle control: ±12dB @ 200Hz to 3.1kHz; Q = 1.3
Treble control: ±12dB @ 6kHz (guitar) ±12dB @ 3khz (bass)
Brilliance control: ±7dB @ 10kHz (guitar); Q = 0.8 ±7dB @ 5kHz (bass); Q = 0.8
Notch Filter: 45Hz to 370kHz; Q = 8 12dB Attenuation

 

[Chris K]

Very informative thread... I have a Markbass 151p, which I used for BG with much pleasure, but now I am starting on DB. I have neither pickup nor preamp so far, but I would like to use the MB. As for tone, I like clarity and sustain, no thumpy stuff. What would you guys go for?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I have neither pickup nor preamp so far, but I would like to use the MB. As for tone, I like clarity and sustain, no thumpy stuff. What would you guys go for?

Sustain is never a problem.
Pickup depends...

And you don‘t want to hear that, but a smaller speaker gives you more clarity than your big one. A DB doesn‘t need a lot of low frequency content because the box cannot radiate that frequency range well. More of that low end doesn‘t sound like a DB.

 

[Chris K]

Sustain is never a problem.
Pickup depends...

And you don‘t want to hear that, but a smaller speaker gives you more clarity than your big one. A DB doesn‘t need a lot of low-frequency content because the box cannot radiate that frequency range well. More of that low end doesn‘t sound like a DB.

As a philosopher understanding the power of (dialectic) discourse, I'm always happy to hear different views.

I get your point, however, opinions seem to differ in this respect. Of course, I would like my DB to sound as acoustically as possible, otherwise, I could just go on playing my fretless 5-string BG that already sounds very 'stringy' through the Markbass, thanks to its Bartolini pickups and TI Jazz Rounds.

I also have a PJB Briefcase that would be ideal (higher input impedance) but it is not working well at the moment. My next step is to clean the EQ. And yes, it has small speakers and yet sounds fantastic. The venue is an important factor also. On larger venues, I used to run my BG signal through the PJB and then into the Markbass with very satisfying results.

IMHO in larger places, the inches do count. I mix for close-by sound on the PJB, and then on the Markbass for my sound at a distance with the help of my band members. In many cases, a flat EQ on the MB was just fine. but as we all know, for a low ceiling, sound-damping materials, packed house you need fewer lows and more highs.

Still leaves the pickup question unanswered... I plan to do mostly (semi-)acoustic stuff, jazz, latin, singer-guitarist accompaniment etc.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

OK, now we have the styles which helps.
It seems that you might need to get loud. The problem with DB is that the louder it gets the less DB-like the sound gets and the more problems with feedback you get. The feedback comes from the air vibrations pressing on the top which gets sensed by the pickup. So better limit your stage volume with DB.

You can use a magnetic pickup to avoid that, but then you loose a lot of the DB sound and might still need to damp the top and box volume vibrations which even more destroys the DB sound.

Soundwise an as it mic is best but mostly unusable for your stage sound due to feedback. A lot better is a contact mic (Ischell, Ehrlund EAP, AKG C411+B29L), but finding a position on the top where the sound is well represented can need some time they work with carved instruments best.

To get louder you need to get closer to the strings, so somewhere on the bridge. Bridge foot is the next, then bridge leg which still work with the bow too. Bridge wing next and bridge crown last which eliminates the box found mostly and doesn’t sound nice with the bow. It is a compromise and you need to find out which one is best for you.

Maybe you want more than one pickup to have options. Try the classifieds to get a used one which you can sell if you don’t like it without loosing too much money.

For a preamp you need one with a high impedance input (at least 4.7 MegOhms) for any passive piezo pickup. If you use a provided backline it should include a bass-specific EQ that can be set neutral too. A parametric EQ can help to get rid of the piezo resonance of ceramic piezo pickups. Another option is a good valve input stage.

You can get a lot of very different recommendations here. But the truth is that you need to find out yourself what works for your instrument, sound expectations, volume level etc.

The best recommendation is to read the threads, keep things in mind and then try some pickups on your instrument and your playing situations. What sounds good at home doesn’t always work as well on stage.

 

[Chris K]

@DoubleMIDI Thanks man, but I don't think I need to get really loud. For now, my first try will be a David Gage Realist Copperplate (saw some good comparison video's), such as



Later on, I might mix it with a condenser mic, the AudixADX20iP for example, not the very best, but almost, very nice quality for the price. Also on this issue I saw a very comprehensive and honest comparison:

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

Very informative thread... I have a Markbass 151p, which I used for BG with much pleasure, but now I am starting on DB. I have neither pickup nor preamp so far, but I would like to use the MB. As for tone, I like clarity and sustain, no thumpy stuff. What would you guys go for?

I wouldn't over-complicate things. You already have an amplifier that should work well with your double bass. After selecting a pickup and playing a few gigs you can decide if you need to invest in a preamp or go a different direction in terms of amplification. I have a Fishman Platinum Stage preamp but I don't use it that often, even when I use my Markbass combo.

Most bassists I know use a piezo bridge pickup, the most popular being the Realist & Lifeline from David Gage and the Full Circle from Fishman, the latter being my preference. Adding a condenser mic may be something to consider in the future, but combining it with a pickup makes for a more complicated setup and the results aren't always worth it in my experience. I tend to use my DPA mic as the sole sound source when there is a good PA system, a soundman, and no drums, which does not describe the majority of my gigs.

- Steve