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Martial Arts
- Thread starter God_of_bass
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guy n. cognito said:
Or it could be the only thing that's given me results in my training. And the fact that it makes total sense.
Karatekid, the irony is painful again.
Or maybe you're right? Standing in a line, screaming at the air is a better way to train.
EDIT: Seriously, how can you think Aliveness is a bad thing or brainwashing? It makes perfect sense. It's the closest thing to real combat as you can get. Better yet, do you have a better alternative?
EDIT 2: Not to mention, none of my instructors have ever used that term. They just know it works because that's how styles that work are taught. Boxing, Wrestling, Muay Thai, BJJ, etc. All of them have aliveness in common. It doesn't need to be said. It's there from the start. Other martial arts look at it and go "what's that?" because it's lacking in their style. Which is a shame.
Poop-Loops said:
?? Who does that?? Again you firmly cement that you have no idea... Again your assuming your brief glance at other arts has given you enough insight to comment on all clubs and dojos...
And so that I don't join you in bashing other peoples training styles, I'll just say that sometimes standing in a line yelling at the air, looking at yourself in the mirror can be beneficial. You get a moment to train at your own pace without someone in your face. You can really work on the technique and develop speed. Having the mirror there helps you to see if you have any give away movements before you make a move (such as a slight foot adjustment or pull a bit of a face). If you don't spend time fixing these things, then in a real fight situation your attacker will just wait back and look for your give away signal. When they get it, they will be all over you, leaving you wondering if their psychic...
Again, obviously, if you do this all the time then your not going to go very well in a fight, cos you will basically poo yourself under the stress. You need to mix it up. If you never do this type of training, then IMO your just lacking in an area. You might be fearless and be able to punch on, but you havn't spent the time working on the finer points, or screaming at the air as you describe it.
Yet again, rather than just bashing everything you don't do, why not give us your opinion on why a certain aspect of training doesn't work. For the air punchers you have offended, why not tell us WHY they are wasting their time.
KarateKid25 said:
When did I mention a mirror, Ms. Beauty Queen?
I meant this:
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Of course not telegraphing your moves is a good idea. I find it's better to train under supervision, though. Can't? Then do something else. It's really hard to pick out your own mistakes, don't you agree? Like trying to do a real punch, but still focus on seeing anything wrong with it. Today I hit the heavy bag. It was a power/speed/endurance day for me today. Didn't care so much about getting my technique perfect (although I always care about technique), so much as giving it my all.
Yep ok fair enough...
I just mentioned the mirror as that is how our dojo is set up and my sensei has other students to look after aswell. You are 100% correct with the supervision statement. I also agree that you can't really watch and go 100%.
I doubt that the club in the photo always trains in that way. If they do then I would also agree that they aren't well equiped for self defence.
I just mentioned the mirror as that is how our dojo is set up and my sensei has other students to look after aswell. You are 100% correct with the supervision statement. I also agree that you can't really watch and go 100%.
I doubt that the club in the photo always trains in that way. If they do then I would also agree that they aren't well equiped for self defence.
Oh, in your club. Yeah, we had a mirror in our club too. Umm... it went away after I took a break (hurt my knee). Nobody knows what happened. I thought maybe someone got thrown into it, but they would have remembered that...
Karatekid, open your eyes, MANY schools train like this for a significan portion of their time. You all keep telling me I don't know many schools. I DO. You all must have great schools, becuase the vast majority of them feed you crap and take your money.
Temple Kung Fu
West Wind Karate
American Tae Kwon Do Association
These are probably the most notorious of the scammers because they are HUGE. I went to Temple Kung Fu myself. Spent about a year there. Such a waste of time. After a year, I had a yellow belt test. An assistant teacher grabbed my wrist (and acted like a zombie... it really freaked me out because he never acted like this before...I was also 14) and I couldn't get out. I sucked. I thought to myself "man, I suck. I need to train more. I definately didn't pass." Surprise surprise, I did pass. That's when I left the school. I KNOW I didn't deserve that.
Do a search on those 3 organizations and you'll see more crap than you would ever want to.
You can also do a search on Bullshido.net and find some horror stories about those schools.
"But Poop Loops! Those are just schools, not the whole art!"
Yeah yeah. But those schools only took what the arts were about and exploited it. They didn't really change much.
You have to understand, bad training methods are found in a LOT of martial arts these days. Scoure youtube for some clips or go watch some classes. It's just appaling.
Karatekid, you spar in your school, right?
Karatekid, open your eyes, MANY schools train like this for a significan portion of their time. You all keep telling me I don't know many schools. I DO. You all must have great schools, becuase the vast majority of them feed you crap and take your money.
Temple Kung Fu
West Wind Karate
American Tae Kwon Do Association
These are probably the most notorious of the scammers because they are HUGE. I went to Temple Kung Fu myself. Spent about a year there. Such a waste of time. After a year, I had a yellow belt test. An assistant teacher grabbed my wrist (and acted like a zombie... it really freaked me out because he never acted like this before...I was also 14) and I couldn't get out. I sucked. I thought to myself "man, I suck. I need to train more. I definately didn't pass." Surprise surprise, I did pass. That's when I left the school. I KNOW I didn't deserve that.
Do a search on those 3 organizations and you'll see more crap than you would ever want to.
You can also do a search on Bullshido.net and find some horror stories about those schools.
"But Poop Loops! Those are just schools, not the whole art!"
Yeah yeah. But those schools only took what the arts were about and exploited it. They didn't really change much.
You have to understand, bad training methods are found in a LOT of martial arts these days. Scoure youtube for some clips or go watch some classes. It's just appaling.
Karatekid, you spar in your school, right?
Ok. I can see where your coming from now. Those mass, world wide schools that operate more as a business do my head in too. I went to another shotkan club for a while and left when I found out you had to pay $300 US for a black belt grading!! Thats just wrong. There are also DVD packs that claim grand master abilities from the comfort of your lounge room in 8 weeks for $100!! Its things like that, that make the rest of us look like fools.
I was getting a bit narky before as it seemed like you where just bashing the whole art in general.
To answer your question, yes we spar. We are a full contact group. We pay insurance and sign our lives away. I had my ribs broken once and the club paid my medical expenses which is pretty good
I was getting a bit narky before as it seemed like you where just bashing the whole art in general.
To answer your question, yes we spar. We are a full contact group. We pay insurance and sign our lives away. I had my ribs broken once and the club paid my medical expenses which is pretty good
KarateKid25 said:Ok. I can see where your coming from now. Those mass, world wide schools that operate more as a business do my head in too. I went to another shotkan club for a while and left when I found out you had to pay $300 US for a black belt grading!! Thats just wrong. There are also DVD packs that claim grand master abilities from the comfort of your lounge room in 8 weeks for $100!! Its things like that, that make the rest of us look like fools.
I was getting a bit narky before as it seemed like you where just bashing the whole art in general.
To answer your question, yes we spar. We are a full contact group. We pay insurance and sign our lives away. I had my ribs broken once and the club paid my medical expenses which is pretty good
Guess what, though? You're an exception if you do Shotokan. That picture I showed you? From a Shotokan school. That doesn't mean much by itself, but it's like you yourself saw. Not that all schools are out for your money, but a lot of them just don't know any better and don't do any sparring. Why? "Because we might kill each other." "we're too deadly" blah blah. Did you die? No.
I'm not trying to rag on other styles to make myself feel better. I don't need that. I am just trying to spread the word about REAL martial arts. I don't like LARPers who pretend to be martial artists by dressing up and kicking the air. I also don't like it when good people get fooled into doing that.
It just so happens that many styles share common training methods. Methods that suck. Every now and then you'll find a school within that style that has different training methods. That's a good school, but the style as a whole is still lacking.
This isn't like Naruto. Not all styles have their weakness and strength. Some are just better than others.
Poop-Loops said:
Poopy, I read the website and watched a number of videos that can be found easily on the internet. Let me tell you what you've fallen for: Your boy Matt is a mixed martial artist (one who, as far as I can tell, can't demonstrate the benefits of his skills by proving that he can win MMA tournaments), who took his combined learning, gave it a fancy name, a bunch of words, and a picture of him wrestling a tiger. Then he sold it to you as the end-all-be-all self defense technique. As with most techniques, I'm sure there are good things to be learned from it. But, in reality, you have fallen for the same hype that you claims discredits many other organized martial arts.
In my search for videos, I didn't find any full contact sparring or "real world scenarios". I DID find a bunch of rolling around on the ground (without hitting, which is highly impractical), tapping out, and "pretend" sparring among unpadded teenagers. Again, all things that you despise in other martial arts. Can you give us something that demonstrates, without a shadow of a doubt, that Matt's techniques are superior to other techniques? Is Matt, his instructors, or his students DOMINATING the MMA world. Are they consistently winning in tournaments around the world? You say that it's the closest thing to "real combat", but can you prove that the technique has been used in real, or even simulated combat and has pervailed more times than not?
Please, don't continue to spout your dogma. Don't continue to try to make us believe that you are some sort of expert with only 12 months experience in your new "hobby" or 3 years total experience in Martial Arts (over 6 years, right?). Either prove that your style is superior, or stop trying to convince us otherwise.
guy n. cognito said:
Agreed! MMA has made alot of young kids think this is the real way to fight..and i will admit it is the best based for real self defense vs say the old school i learned 25 years ago.
Problem is it is a sport and alot of the moves are only effective in the ring in a controlled enviroment.Oiled up bald guys in tight shorts dont hang out on mean streets looking to grapple with you. Try rolling and armbaring a wacked out menal patient or a crank head needing a fix coming at you with a sharpened screw driver as you walk out of the quicky mart. BJJ was developed thru the Gracie's and it is a highly touted MA they had an unbeatable track record for what seemed ever. It is a sport art period it can be altered for defenses in the street but all combatives trainers police included will teach and train to never try to go to the ground in a fight.BJJ teaches just that ..take the agresser to the ground to even up highth ,weight disadvantages etc.
The problem is some but not all fights go to the ground if so ...my advice is get up! If you cannot use ground fighting tech then only. Poopy even suggested that a BJJ trained person would simply throw and a aggresser to the ground ..end of story...BJJ uses clutching and shoots and a few weak throws compared to arts such as Judo. BJJ's self defense tech outlined in the gracies books are quite a joke...its the best sport art in the world period...again sport.
I dont profess to be a Martial artist...i gave this up years ago. I practice and preach ..Tactical fighting and combatives for real world survival.I have worked in Law Enforcement, bouncer,Security ,Public ,event and the NFL to a security monitor in a Mental disabilitys training and workshop and also youth corrections.In my years i have seen alot and i know what works ..but you know what it never matters cuz all the training never can give you a 100% chance of getting out of a encounter unhurt or alive. Even police who carry gun's for a living don't think for a second they are invinceable to even an unarmed attacker...many have been killed with their own weapon.All the training in the world can never duplicate a attack cuz you never know when, how , why or how many and what weapons are involved.
I just say this live in peace,continue to train and learn. Dont be quick to bash others thoughts or practices.Time is the best teacher and kids like poopy will someday see the light.
guy n. cognito said:
Hello, first of all no I do not play the Bass (though I have a friend who's a music instructor who may be interested in this site, and I can play a mean trumpet
). Yes Poopy asked me to come here, but to be quite honest I only came over because -as I said on another forum to him- he wasn't doing too hot expressing his point because he kept resorting to insulting and attacking rather than trying to really clarify himself, but in the last few posts I think he did so pretty well.As to Matt Thornton, you are completely right. He has repackaged common sense, and is making a bundle off of it. But in fairness to him, we desperately needed someone like him to shove it in our faces in a clear concise manner. The MA world has been full of BS, and the late 80's early 90's saw some of the worst of it with ninjas, deadly krotty masters, and everyone training under some secret monk from China, real training for practical self defense or fighting was hard to come by.
Matts guys do often compete in MMA, and I'd have to go search up a list but I believe a number of notable fighters are affiliated with SBG. Also keep in mind, most SBG's are not MMA clubs. They are like most MA schools, and seek a wide demographic of people to teach, young, old and such. Matt's vision was to teach self defense and MA the "right" way, and I applaud him for doing so. I train BJJ at Matt Serra's school, and there's pretty much a male 17-35 type demographic there, because that's who they appeal do. I'd expect their to be a number of competitors from that school.
bassbully43 said:
I'm glad you said that. Saved me alot of time typing
Interesting, because I know ALOT of police officers who train at my BJJ club, and they say it's the bread-n-butter of what they use on the job. Quickly apprehend the guy, pancake him to the floor, and cuff'm. They say that any standup striking training is useless, because once you start battering the guy you now have a use of force claim to explain, not to mention a possible lawsuit from the perp.
A) I would not reccomend going to the Gracies for SD application
B) BJJ techniques teach you some of the best ways to get back up. Just telling someone to get back up if they hit the ground isn't realistic.
So you are an RBSD (reality based self defense) intructor. Interesting. Have you seen Bas Rutten's self defense DVD's? They are praised as some of the best instructional material in that field. Or are you more of a Jim Wagner/Tim Larkin fan? (assuming you've heard of any of these guys
)I agree, but the site I came from Link Removed essentially exists to stop BS and scam artists in the martial arts. Alot of guys there have Poopy's kind of attitude, though I feel that attacking the problem is much more efficient at attaining the goals of stopping people from gaining false senses of security or robbed of their money, rather than attacking the people themselves.
Wow, entertaining thread.
i have recently developed an interest in martial arts, and i have been casually studying Traditional Wing Chun(TWC) .i've also done a little boxing prior to starting TWC.
its fun though, and i think a combination of boxing (for the longer range) TWC (for the close range) and BJJ (for the grappling) will be a great combination.
I don't think that any great fighter would have done any one style. Bruce has been brought up multiple times already, yet he studied many styles (remembering that TWC was his main art - it basically made him who he was). but thats bruce lee, that worked for him. every one of us has to find what works for them.
p.s. it doesn't matter what martial art you do in the end, because if you get king hit (like the vast majority of public fights) then you're gonna drop like a sack of potatoes.
i have recently developed an interest in martial arts, and i have been casually studying Traditional Wing Chun(TWC) .i've also done a little boxing prior to starting TWC.
its fun though, and i think a combination of boxing (for the longer range) TWC (for the close range) and BJJ (for the grappling) will be a great combination.
I don't think that any great fighter would have done any one style. Bruce has been brought up multiple times already, yet he studied many styles (remembering that TWC was his main art - it basically made him who he was). but thats bruce lee, that worked for him. every one of us has to find what works for them.
p.s. it doesn't matter what martial art you do in the end, because if you get king hit (like the vast majority of public fights) then you're gonna drop like a sack of potatoes.
KempoFighter said:I'm glad you said that. Saved me alot of time typing
Interesting, because I know ALOT of police officers who train at my BJJ club, and they say it's the bread-n-butter of what they use on the job. Quickly apprehend the guy, pancake him to the floor, and cuff'm. They say that any standup striking training is useless, because once you start battering the guy you now have a use of force claim to explain, not to mention a possible lawsuit from the perp.
Ahh...good point but you are talking...gaining control and securing and arrest.I'm talking an all out fight...you need to stay on your feet to A. Use a weapon...baton,pepper spray,Gun,Taser etc...watch any of the videos where police get into an attack and the first thing they do is get space to secure themselves, size up the attacker and choose if they need to administer force or not useing any of the weapons above. During an arrest yes you want to get them on the ground or on a car up on a building etc to use body weight and force to secure and cuff. Yes alot of BJJ- ers are law enforcement again it is very usefull when altered for the street.
A) I would not reccomend going to the Gracies for SD application Well said!
B) BJJ techniques teach you some of the best ways to get back up. Just telling someone to get back up if they hit the ground isn't realistic.
Very true again...i can't explain it ...just get up and cover while you do.
So you are an RBSD (reality based self defense) intructor. Interesting. Have you seen Bas Rutten's self defense DVD's? They are praised as some of the best instructional material in that field. Or are you more of a Jim Wagner/Tim Larkin fan? (assuming you've heard of any of these guys
No, i am not an intructor nor want to be. I have assisted in demos etc and am lucky to have trained with some great guys. One is a tactical intructor who's videos and trainings are used world wide in his methods of jail/prison training for staff and corrections and he is an expert in teaching the squads who rush in and extract violent prisoners from their cells and riot control...he was a good BJJ instructor and roller. I have gotten out of it due to injury and enjoy bass and my band now
I agree, but the site I came from Link Removed essentially exists to stop BS and scam artists in the martial arts. Alot of guys there have Poopy's kind of attitude, though I feel that attacking the problem is much more efficient at attaining the goals of stopping people from gaining false senses of security or robbed of their money, rather than attacking the people themselves.
It is a pleasure talking with you and for you taking the time to reach out and express your views. Poopy needs to learn respect. I have ton's more MA or training than bass playing ...i dont come on this site bashing guys who make a living playing the bass or have years over me. I listen learn and use what i want from the help and advise i get...he needs to do the same. He needs to grow up ..and will...he fumed me more on another thread on this site where he bashed jazz music and blues over dealth metal.....:scowl: geez give me a break...dealth metal?
Sorry Kempofighter the answers are in the blue also to your relpys...gee you think i would know how to use this site better
I started in 1979 in Kempo got almost to Black then walked away.....aw youth.
I started in 1979 in Kempo got almost to Black then walked away.....aw youth.bassbully43 said:Sorry Kempofighter the answers are in the blue also to your relpys...gee you think i would know how to use this site better
Don't worry, I'm used to forums and I could read it
You started in the Ed Parker American Kenpo I presume?And in regards to training and styles and such, I have many opinions on various styles, but at this point in a discussion, -especially on a board like this that has nothing to do with MA training- I feel that it's not worth going into detail on that. I'd much rather address the bigger issue of whether your training is "dead" or "alive." Quite simply put, you've all heard the phrase "you fight how you train," and that can't be any more true. If you spend your training time doing katas or compliant drills (dead), that will be all you are prepared to do. If you spend time doing resistant drills and incremental sparring (starting with low contact and working your way up on your own comfort level) then those tools will be what's at your disposal to use. It's much like trying to learn to swim without getting in the water. It just doesn't make sense. Now Poopy's feelings on different styles are derived from both personal experience as well as others experience from the site I posted, about the percentage of schools in a given art that use "live" training over "dead" training.
I'm thinking of getting into Krav Maga. A new place opened near me, looks pretty nice.
Anyone experienced in KM?
Anyone experienced in KM?
EmmSee said:
I have not trained in it personally, but I have friends who go to a local KM school. Krav Maga is a more RBSD focused style, and that can be a curse or a blessing. Typical KM schools work on alot of infighting and controlling of the opponent through off-balancing. Check out the school, and keep note of how much sparring they do per training session. If it's light tap sparring (in an advanced class) or no sparring at all I'd stay away. Working only technique without any live application leaves you with nothing more than LARPing (Live action roleplaying) in classtime, and doesn't build any real skill. Resistant drilling (both partners trying to apply various techniques in a controlled environment) should be present after the basics have been gotten down, and after that some sort of freeform sparring should be introduced. From heresay Krav schools can be some of the best places to train for Self defense purposes, but on the same coin they can also be quite misleading if you come across a not-so-great school.
Good luck in your training whatever your decision.
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