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Double Bass Maybe this just isn't for me. (German bow help)

Tiddleypidlei

Tiddleypidlei

Decent at bass. Suck at everything else.
Supporting Member
Jun 8, 2014
96
154
Tampa, FL
dabassplace.wordpress.com
#1
I'm just losing all motivation to even play bass, I just don't see any progress in my playing, more importantly my bowing. I get so discouraged every time I pick up the bow, it's giving me the urge to just quit.

I don't know where to start, but i'll try.

I'm just getting back into the upright bass, after a 4 year hiatus. I finally saved up enough and bought one back in September of 2018. Got my self a really good teacher and was excited to start all over again. Fingering and pizz I caught onto to quickly, felt just like how it felt 4 years prior. But my arco is horrible, I for the life of me cannot get a decent tone if my life depended on it. maybe nostalgia is clouding my memory but I don't remember me sounding that bad when I bowed. I practice 1-2 hours every day and see no progress.
So I guess here are my questions
1) How do I get a comfortable German bow grip? It almost feels like the frog of the bow is to big for me to comfortably grip it without squeezing and locking my wrist. (I'm 5'3 BTW)
2) How do I reduce screeching and scratchy noises when I bow?
3) How do I reduce arm/shoulder fatigue when I bow?
4) How do I keep my bow straight, without locking my elbow out? I start the bow straight, but for some reason as I get to the tip, the tip slightly angles downward towards the floor?
5) How do I loosen my stiff wrist while bowing?

I asked my teacher but he told me he is not the well versed at German bow as he is french, and would prefer me to ask German bow players. (He studied with Francois Rabbath)
 
#2
Tiddleypidlei said:
he told me he is not the well versed at German bow as he is french
Click to expand...
You've answered your own question.
Many of your issues and concerns would (hopefully) be addressed (& solved?) with lessons, (in-person, LIVE, in the same room), with a competent/experienced teacher who PLAYS German bow at a professional level.
Just my $0.03.
You may want to provide your Geographic Location, as TB members may be able to suggest teachers near you.
Good Luck.
 
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#5
Hi, I am a French bow teacher and I know others will follow me with better advice but, because the principles are alike, here is a start!

(1) I recall a past Thread where someone had a link to 10 different ways to hold the German bow.
(2) I had to look up your pick up on line to see that there is a transducer fitted in one wing of your bridge. If this is so then this will affect how the bridge responds to the bow and should be temporarily removed. Also experiment with bow hair tension, using less or different rosin, wiping down and even scraping your strings to remove rosin build up, bow contact point, starting notes too close to the frog, etc.
(3) Hold the bow out in front of you at shoulder height. This requires "crane" muscles in the top of your arm and shoulder. Then simply lower the bow onto the strings and relax the weight of your arm into the string through the bow (no crane muscles) Leave that weight there and draw the bow sideways. Treat your bow hold as a flexible hook that transfers the weight by bending the bow hair gently but firmly around the string.
(4) Never lock your R elbow. Because the bass is leaning back towards you and the curved fingerboard is also leaning back then 90 degrees to the G string will point the bow down through the middle of the cut-out middle bout. 90 degrees to the two middle strings will look and feel like parallel to the floor. To bow the bottom string at 90 degrees your hand will have to drop and point the stick upwards to some degree. Or, put simply, if you keep your arm relatively long and straight as you roll the bow across the four strings from your shoulder you will go from pointing down on the G to pointing up on the E.
(5) This has to do with Bow hold and allowing the weight of the arm and shoulder muscles to share the work.

With your current teacher's knowledge and permission I suggest approaching a good German user (that he might even suggest) for a few extra lessons.

Best wishes, and hang in there!
 
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#7
If you feel like the teacher you have is someone you want to stick with long term consider switching to French bow. After taking such a long period of time off, a fresh approach might be very helpful and will probably inform your German bow playing. The issues that you have concerns about are not things that are easily solved with a few lessons. Just something to consider.
 
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#12
There is a little practise I recall my teacher showed me at first. It won't solve all your problems, but it might help.

1. loose your right hand, wave it few times along your body. The point is to release all muscle strenght.
2. take the bow as it should be held (german grip) and aim it straight up. Angle your elbow normally, so you can easily aim the bow up. The tip of the bow should be somewhere around your head.
3. with your fingers, lift the bow up (this will be just few centimetres). Then, release the bow back to its original position. You're fighting gravity, nothing else.
4. try to remember the feeling. It should feel easy.
5. do it few times. Then grab the bass and play something, longest tones you can, try to recall the easy feeling. The trick is to do this finger movement when you reach the end of the bow: your elbow still goes left, while your fingers start to pull the bow to the right. The fingers are faster than elbow and can control the transition of elbow movement. Elbow moves a little 'in arch', the fingers in opposite way... kind of like Foucalt pendulum. Everything should be very fluid. In time, you can do it with less finger movement. (When your reach the frog, it's the same, vice versa.)

It's hard to describe. English is not my native, so it you can't understand what I write, it's likely my fault. You would definitely benefit from finding somebody who can show it to you.

But in general I think, if you have a really good French grip teacher and German teacher would not be available, I think in the long time you would benefit from investing into French bow and following your teacher. I never played French bow, but I don't really think there are some unbelievable benefits of German above Frech.
 
#13
I’m guessing the general consensus is to find myself a German bow teacher. I was afraid I was going to get answers like that. Prior to meeting my current teacher, I asked a lot(obviously not all) of the local bass players near me if they could give me lessons, Most were too busy.(not saying I won’t try again) some leads to German bow instructors would be helpful.

I actually started off on French bow and played it for 2 years, and could never get a comfortable grip. My thumb would be so sore after practice, so I switched to German. Everything felt better with a German bow, but alas that was 4 years ago. Now everything feels terrible with either bow. So I guess it doesn’t really matter what bow I use now.

Also has anyone used the Discover Double bass German Bow course with David Allen Moore? I obviously need a in person teacher but I’m interested to try this as I search for a new teacher.

Thanks for all the great well thought out answers.
 
#14
Tiddleypidlei said:
2) How do I reduce screeching and scratchy noises when I bow?
Click to expand...
As the rest of your questions specifically concern German bow technique (which should be addressed by a professional, in person), I’m only going to focus on this.

Proper bow technique is probably the answer, but there are plenty of things which can cause unwanted noises. Old, powdered hair is often the culprit. You can try cleaning the hair with a brush, or even using some chemicals. Bows should be rehaired at least once year, even 2-3x a year for heavy use.

Old rosin is also a problem. Pops, for example, has a particularly short shelf life and should be replaced every few months.

Strings are also something to consider. In general, the best strings for pizzicato are often very difficult to bow cleanly. Old strings can also be to blame.

It’s always a good idea to have several other players take a look at your equipment. See if they have the same problems, and ask if they would want to change anything about the set up.
 
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#15
+1 to the advice on rosin and bow hair tension. I had a heck of a time starting out with a really old cake of Pops and thinking that the hair should be loose enough to almost touch the stick. I use Carlsson's and rather tight hair now, the squeaks only come back when the rosin is too dry (and then I slice a little off the top of the cake and proceed). While I'm in no position to be giving advice on bow technique, I will say that I started with French bow, found it uncomfortable, thought German was for me, and played that way for a few years. Then I switched back to French and now it feels very comfortable for whatever reason. I don't know what changed, but it's good to keep an open mind :)
 
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#16
I’m playing on a 07 Upton Hawkes plywood strung with Helicore hybrids medium tension.
I use a bow I bought off TB, I’ll post the listing Here.
I usually use POPS rosin

I texted my teacher about how to reduce screeching scratchy bow noise and he said
“To get a good sound from the bow, focus on speed, weight, and bow placement”.
How would go about doing this?
 
Last edited:
#19
Tiddleypidlei said:
I'm just losing all motivation to even play bass, I just don't see any progress in my playing, more importantly my bowing. I get so discouraged every time I pick up the bow, it's giving me the urge to just quit.

I don't know where to start, but i'll try.

I'm just getting back into the upright bass, after a 4 year hiatus. I finally saved up enough and bought one back in September of 2018. Got my self a really good teacher and was excited to start all over again. Fingering and pizz I caught onto to quickly, felt just like how it felt 4 years prior. But my arco is horrible, I for the life of me cannot get a decent tone if my life depended on it. maybe nostalgia is clouding my memory but I don't remember me sounding that bad when I bowed. I practice 1-2 hours every day and see no progress.
So I guess here are my questions
1) How do I get a comfortable German bow grip? It almost feels like the frog of the bow is to big for me to comfortably grip it without squeezing and locking my wrist. (I'm 5'3 BTW)
2) How do I reduce screeching and scratchy noises when I bow?
3) How do I reduce arm/shoulder fatigue when I bow?
4) How do I keep my bow straight, without locking my elbow out? I start the bow straight, but for some reason as I get to the tip, the tip slightly angles downward towards the floor?
5) How do I loosen my stiff wrist while bowing?

I asked my teacher but he told me he is not the well versed at German bow as he is french, and would prefer me to ask German bow players. (He studied with Francois Rabbath)
Click to expand...

Answers to your questions:
1) A good German bow hold may be unique to you. Many great players vary in their hold. Experiment until you find yours.

2) Responses from this thread may help you.
Screeching Notes & strings, rosin, technique
I now have solved the ‘screeching’ issue. Texting your teacher will not solve this one.

3) There should be no arm/shoulder fatigue. Get some pointers in person from your teacher.

4) Play in front of a mirror and adjust.

5) Relax. You may, out of frustration, be tight and ‘gripping’. Same goes for the shoulder fatigue.

Regarding a German bow teacher who plays German. It may be a good idea, maybe not. My teacher plays only French, I play German. I tune in 5ths, he tunes in 4ths. We get along great and I learn a ton from him every lesson, without problems in our differing styles. French or German, the bow is still about hair on a string and the sound you get. A good teacher is a good teacher.

I have MANY bass instruction books. I recommend you get a copy of Murray Grodner’s ‘A Double Bassist’s Guide to Refining Performance Practices’. It is not expensive. You will get a lot out of it. There is a section on ‘preventive exercises for physical abuses related to playing double bass’. Plus much more you will benefit from.

Your issues will evaporate with problem solving and a lot of focused, relaxed, regular practice time.
 
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#20
Tiddleypidlei said:
What did you find the most helpful about the course?
Click to expand...
There are some points, who fit my my needs of information advice, but the most helpful at my point are the "exercises without bow" to get an idea of moving arm and hand.. to get an imagination, how it should be...particulary chapter 2 about "arm gestures and movements" and chapter 3 and 4 about bow hold and bow control
 
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