Double Bass Maybe this just isn't for me. (German bow help)

[The Biz]

I texted my teacher about how to reduce screeching scratchy bow noise and he said

“To get a good sound from the bow, focus on speed, weight, and bow placement”.

How would go about doing this?

First, it’s hard and frustrating, I hear you…


A mirror helps, not just for placement and keeping the bow parallel. Look into your eyes when doing scales, not your hands. Take your concentration away from the physical requirements.


When we are bad at something we do it tentatively...bowing tentatively teaches nothing. Make some noise, don't worry what the neighbours think. Play confidently and you will sound better.

 

[neilG]

Answers to your questions:
Experiment until you find yours.

I'm going to humbly and respectfully disagree with this advice. Someone who hasn't a clue about the bow hold should probably not be experimenting, but learning one thing taught to them by a good teacher. Later on, as the student gets better, the teacher might suggest some changes consistent with the student's natural capabilities, or, as it happens, they discover that on their own after gaining some proficiency.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

I'm going to humbly and respectfully disagree with this advice. Someone who hasn't a clue about the bow hold should probably not be experimenting, but learning one thing taught to them by a good teacher. Later on, as the student gets better, the teacher might suggest some changes consistent with the student's natural capabilities, or, as it happens, they discover that on their own after gaining some proficiency.

No worries Neal!

Here are 11 German bow holds that pro bassist Robert Oppelt observed over the years.
https://lowstringsgdae.wixsite.com/roppelt/german-grips
Tiddleypiddlei should be able to see if he is the ballpark with a hold, and discuss with his teacher.

I use something similar mostly to number 11, but not exactly like any of the 11 shown.
Many of us probably do not hold the German bow exactly like any of these holds.

 

[Tiddleypidlei]

Here are 11 German bow holds that pro bassist Robert Oppelt observed over the years.

WOW! Thanks for this link for all the bow holds. This really helped me, I'm using sort of a grip similar to number 9, the description given is exactly what I'm feeling, tense with a stiff rigid wrist.
I'm going to try all these grips out, my grip is definitely not working for me.

 

[oldNewbie]

I’m playing on a 07 Upton Hawkes plywood strung with Helicore hybrids medium tension.
I use a bow I bought off TB, I’ll post the listing Here.
I usually use POPS rosin

I texted my teacher about how to reduce screeching scratchy bow noise and he said
“To get a good sound from the bow, focus on speed, weight, and bow placement”.
How would go about doing this?

Couple suggestions :
- Daily open strings , 4 count at 60 . Then 5,6,7,8 counts, each way. Play at the very least 10-15 min. Great warmup. For scratching, my teacher advised stopping at the change of direction, then wait a beat, restart. Worked like a charm. Note Matthew Mcdonald on Jason Heath's podcast talking about bowing open notes for HOURS a day additionally to his practice time for months, after he won the Berlin phil audition. Everyone should do it daily !

Breathe while you do this - to get calm , relax and gain focus, but also to work on differentiating the muscle groups that are moving the bow, from the rest of you while your are bowing . Especially as a shorter person, you have to use more range of motion, which involves more complex coordination than say a 6+ footer. Pay attention to what's moving , starting at your obliques and all the way through the rotator cuff. that whole side of your body is moving the bow.

-Use a mirror. Bow parallel to the bridge, not too low. AN excellent time to figure out what your body has to do to get the bow ~over there~ and moving ~this way~, just like the breathing exercise. I predict you'll find interesting things out .

- Maybe it's less scratchy than you think in front of the instrument. Have you every recorded yourself 6-10' in front of the bass ? Voice memo app on your phone is all you need. Lots of the high frequencies that come off the bow-string interface go sideways up at you, no one else can hear them.

good luck !

 

[Tiddleypidlei]

*Quick Update*
Only couple days into doing some of the suggestions you guys gave me and already seeing and hearing little improvements.
I changed the way I hold the German bow, which already started loosening up my stiff wrist. I'm still having a hard time keeping my bow straight without hyper extending my elbow. I started playing in front of a mirror and filming myself like everyone recommended, and I think should raise the endpin of my bass a little to straighten my bow. Do German bow players set there endpin higher bows than french bow players? I for the life of me can not straighten my bow.
I showed my teacher this thread, and guess what HE went out and bought a mirror just to help me straighten my bow. He is now less on the Rabbath teaching and more on basic right hand technique.
Thanks for all the advice I'll keep you guys updated.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

*Quick Update*
Only couple days into doing some of the suggestions you guys gave me and already seeing and hearing little improvements.
I changed the way I hold the German bow, which already started loosening up my stiff wrist. I'm still having a hard time keeping my bow straight without hyper extending my elbow. I started playing in front of a mirror and filming myself like everyone recommended, and I think should raise the endpin of my bass a little to straighten my bow. Do German bow players set there endpin higher bows than french bow players? I for the life of me can not straighten my bow.
I showed my teacher this thread, and guess what HE went out and bought a mirror just to help me straighten my bow. He is now less on the Rabbath teaching and more on basic right hand technique.
Thanks for all the advice I'll keep you guys updated.

Keeping a straight bow is not an absolute rule. If you watch Stoll here he dips his bow tip and angles the bow. If he did not he would be tapping the bass top with his bow tip as he plays close to the fingerboard. He also breaks a few standard ‘rules’. Gary Karr says play the hair flat. Stoll says angle it.

Stoll’s results and palmares are top notch. Watch him play, he really is awesome.

As far as end pin length some pros have their bass high, others low.

 

[kerrycares]

I found the teachers that inspired me ........

My classical teacher would say ,” the only difference between you and I is i’ve Pulled the bow 1,000,000 times more than you , now pull the bow you’ll get it!”

My jazz teacher would say , “ it’s easy and you don’t have the right to judge what you hear, I’m the teacher , you’re doing fine , now play the bass!”

Keep playing, join a band , have fun , you’ll get it!

 

[kerrycares]

 

[LaFaro01]

Keeping a straight bow is not an absolute rule. If you watch Stoll here he dips his bow tip and angles the bow.

So does Roman Patkolo... sometimes.. he changes the bias of the bow for changing the sound.. I believe..

 

[Neil Pye]

By the sound of your list of issues, there are two basic problems. The first I can't help with, because I'm a French bow devotee. I think you need to get a teacher to look seriously at your bow hold and find one that suits your physiognomy. The second issue is tension from your neck, down through the shoulder and into your bow arm. The whole system should be relaxed and acting as a series of springs. David Potts gave some amazing advice earlier in the thread, I would just add that sometimes simply starting by being aware and finding how the tension feels is enough to start the cure!

 

[jisbass]

As many have said, you should look for a German bow teacher.
In the mean time, here are some thoughts.

1. Try sitting while playing. When you’re starting out, it’s hard to try to balance the bass, and keep your body and arms relaxed. pizz is easier, b c you have your right thumb on the fingerboard helping you balance the bass. Even if you prefer standing, it could help to sit temporarily while you learn to control the bow.
2. When you’re on the shorter side and starting out, slight adjustment of endpin height, positioning, stance, etc. could make a big difference. Also size of bass matter as well. So, you should experiment with endpin height, lean of bass, positioning of bass on your body (hip vs belly etc), standing more to side vs more behind, feet positioning, etc, until you find something that works for you. When you’re short it’s harder to find a good position where the bass is high enough for your bow to reach down comfortably, yet not too high for your left hand/ arm to stay relaxed and comfortable at half position. So you should experiment with guidance.
3. Just to eliminate poor equipment as a cause of your problems, have your current teacher play your bass with your bow,(playing your bow with a French hold if necessary) and see if he/she could pull a good sound out of your bass and bow.
4. Make sure you have enough rosin. Even if it’s pops, you still need to put enough on, especially when the hair is new, or if it’s of poorer quality.

 

[210superair]

Man, I actually prefer a German bow on my Eastman, and the French bow in my Kay. I'm not sure why that is, or if it's just me or what. I'll say this, I started bow playing with a German bow, and now in hindsight I consider it the more difficult bow to play. Grip makes a huge difference, and it's like a golf swing. It feels really uncomfortable at first to do it right, and it took me a while to get it.

Just remember brother, bow playing is TOUGH, and nobody ever got awesome at anything by quitting! Stick it out, you'll get it!

 

[Davidruby]

Just my thoughts, others will differ. Viva la difference.

1) How do I get a comfortable German bow grip? It almost feels like the frog of the bow is to big for me to comfortably grip it without squeezing and locking my wrist. (I'm 5'3 BTW)
German bow really works great for those with shorter arms rather than longer arms. The reason for this is the emphasis will be on your elbow joint versus your wrist. Imagine your entire arm as being a flexible single entity flowing energy directly from your shoulder to the point where the bowl meets the string. The important thing is that all parts of your arm will flex and flow as you pull down bow and push up bow. Hold the frog as though you are shaking a hand. The rest you can discover on your isn. You will be your own best teacher. I promise.

2) How do I reduce screeching and scratchy noises when I bow?
I recommend getting a mirror and watch yourself draw the bow across the strings. Begin the attempt to keep the bow in the same part of the string. Then explore the days fference in sound when you pull and push the bow at a 90 degree angle with flat hairs vs keeping the bow at a slight tilt to the string while maintaining a 90 angle. Notice how the arc of the bow can be used to achieve a different tone when you change that tilt. Again, the idea here is discover and experiment.

3) How do I reduce arm/shoulder fatigue when I bow?
Relaxation enhances the flow of energy. All energy focused at the point the hair meets the string.

4) How do I keep my bow straight, without locking my elbow out? I start the bow straight, but for some reason as I get to the tip, the tip slightly angles downward towards the floor?
Watch that angle in the mirror as well as keeping you shoulder low and removed bing all tension down your arm. Energy transmits. naturally when all parts work together, voluntarily.

5) How do I loosen my stiff wrist while bowing?




This will happen when you pull the sound going down now and push the sound going upbow

 

[Andy Mopley]

I'll give you some time for free on Skype. PM me.

Your generosity is wonderful, Neil!