Double Bass MBOL..... Journey, Destination, or Mirage??? Latest Update

[rickwolff]

Once you leave No-amp land it's a jungle out there. But you probably knew that.

The number of variables is amazing:
Strings
Pickup(s)
Mic(s)
Pre-Amp
Amp
Speaker
And the absolutely ENDLESS possibilities of EQ.

I have to start with the fact that I LOVE the unamplified sound of my bass (especially if it's in a good, conducive acoustical environment - like my studio). How could I NOT want to repicate that as closely as possible thru my amplification system.

Here is my latest (and greatest?) rig that is killin in the studio. I'll find out on gigs tonight and Saturday if that translates out to the larger world.

Shen 7/8 Gemunder > Evah Pirazzi Weich G,D,A Spiro Mitt E > Ischell XJack (with the highest roll-off) AND and AKG C411 Contact Mic > Headway EDB-2 > Genz Benz Shuttle 3.0 > MAS 26 Speaker.

Until I made some changes (mostly in the settings) I was getting a sound that was too dark and lacked enough high-freq clarity. I was beginning to worry that my speaker was too dark. But as they say - Garbage In Garbage Out. Well, not exactly garbage, but I was feeding a signal that was too dark at the source - no wonder it was too dark from the speaker.

I decided to believe that maybe Fischer knows what he's talking about when he says that the default setting for the XJack Mic is the most low-end rolloff. I made the setting change and instead of that FAT exaggerated Low End I got a sound that is much more like my natural, acoustic, unamplified bass sound. It also sound Great with the bow which may well be the ultimate test.

Close as that was, I wanted to be able to add some additional high-end 'sizzle' to help cut through the noise in the real world gigging atmosphere. That's where the AKG C411 comes in. I doesn't have quite the same richness and natural sound that the Ischell has, but it does provide some 'laser-cutting' to the sound which can be useful.

Another thing I learned is that AS THE VOLUME INCREASES I NEED TO CUT MORE BASS. When I thought about it, that's why there is a 'Loudness' button on my stereo - to ADD bass when playing at low volume. When the volume increases the bass fills out naturally and if you don't turn of the 'loudness button' the sound gets too muddy.

Well, the proof will be in the pudding. I'll find out on the next couple gigs if I am approaching the destination or still chasing a mirage.

 

[LowG]

Close as that was, I wanted to be able to add some additional high-end 'sizzle' to help cut through the noise in the real world gigging atmosphere. That's where the AKG C411 comes in. I doesn't have quite the same richness and natural sound that the Ischell has, but it does provide some 'laser-cutting' to the sound which can be useful.

Right there is part of the answer to the thread title; MBOL is a mirage. Once volume gets louder, we start needing to "enhance" aspects of our bass tone to make it work in a loud environment. Even when we think we're trying for MBOL we often get tempted by all the knobs and buttons to make it sound "better".

If someone is committed to MBOL I think the only way to shoot for it is to go for simplicity and tech specs. A "flat" mic on a stand in front of you, into a "flat" mic pre, into a "flat" poweramp and speaker. Only controls are volume/gain, and you get what you get!

 

[rickwolff]

Right there is part of the answer to the thread title; MBOL is a mirage. Once volume gets louder, we start needing to "enhance" aspects of our bass tone to make it work in a loud environment. Even when we think we're trying for MBOL we often get tempted by all the knobs and buttons to make it sound "better".

If someone is committed to MBOL I think the only way to shoot for it is to go for simplicity and tech specs. A "flat" mic on a stand in front of you, into a "flat" mic pre, into a "flat" poweramp and speaker. Only controls are volume/gain, and you get what you get!

I agree. IF I were playing concerts (and I needed more volume than what I could get acoustically, I would love to use the exact setup you describe.

If it didn't make for such an unwieldly acronym I might talk about ACAPT MBOL BIARWS.

Or: As Close As Possible To MBOL But In A Real World Setting.

 

[B String]

Most of my experience has been that too much eq just muddles things up. The less "stuff" in the chain the better. Again "in my experience", the Shuttle has very strong eq that's aimed at electric bass. The Headway has great eq aimed at acoustic instruments for the most part. Have you tried taking the Headway directly into the effects return of the Shuttle? That way you're only using the Shuttle as a power source and letting the very capable Headway take care of the eq as needed. It's possible that the two eq's might be working against each other at some frequencies.

 

[rickwolff]

Most of my experience has been that too much eq just muddles things up. The less "stuff" in the chain the better. Again "in my experience", the Shuttle has very strong eq that's aimed at electric bass. The Headway has great eq aimed at acoustic instruments for the most part. Have you tried taking the Headway directly into the effects return of the Shuttle? That way you're only using the Shuttle as a power source and letting the very capable Headway take care of the eq as needed. It's possible that the two eq's might be working against each other at some frequencies.

Great suggestion, thanks. I'll try that. I had noticed in the past that the Shuttle does a much better job of accurately reproducing the DB sound when the Mid-Cut is engaged. With the settings as pictured in my post I do NOT have the mid cut engaged. I'll let you know how your suggestion works.

 

[B String]

Great suggestion, thanks. I'll try that. I had noticed in the past that the Shuttle does a much better job of accurately reproducing the DB sound when the Mid-Cut is engaged. With the settings as pictured in my post I do NOT have the mid cut engaged. I'll let you know how your suggestion works.

Just getting all the secondary electronics out of the signal path might in itself give you more of the MBOL sound. Especially using the Headway as needed. Easy experiment, worth a try.

 

[rickwolff]

Just getting all the secondary electronics out of the signal path might in itself give you more of the MBOL sound. Especially using the Headway as needed. Easy experiment, worth a try.

B String, THANK YOU! For all the times I've read about bypassing the EQ stage I had never tried it. I plugged into the 'Auxilary Input'. Is that correct? It was either that or the 'Effect Return'.

Anyway, it does indeed sound Cleaner and More Like My Bass (only louder, lol). Another thing is that I have much more gain that way - either because the 'Aux In' is hotter or because I was mostly cutting EQ on the Shuttle (rather than boosting).

In any case, it now sounds Even Better. Can't wait to try it on the gig tonight.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

It's the effect return. You can use the auxiliary input, but that won't go to the DI out, if I remember correctly.

 

[Jay Corwin]

My head is spinning just thinking about blending two mics through two pre's.....and also form the amount of cash you have invested right there!

I used to use a Shuttle and always had the mid scoop engaged. It just wouldn't work otherwise. The only complaint I had is that there just wasn't enough headroom in the power section after the mid scoop was engaged.

I do wish now that I still had the Shuttle though with my Upton and RS2 to test it out. I think I was using a bassmax, and mics back then.

 

[B String]

B String, THANK YOU! For all the times I've read about bypassing the EQ stage I had never tried it. I plugged into the 'Auxilary Input'. Is that correct? It was either that or the 'Effect Return'.

Anyway, it does indeed sound Cleaner and More Like My Bass (only louder, lol). Another thing is that I have much more gain that way - either because the 'Aux In' is hotter or because I was mostly cutting EQ on the Shuttle (rather than boosting).

In any case, it now sounds Even Better. Can't wait to try it on the gig tonight.

SO glad it worked for you! Yes, its the effects return that goes directly to the power amp. You only have the master volume on the Shuttle at that point since you're bypassing the preamp. Leave the Shuttle master up most or all of the way for headroom and use the volume, eq and blend on the Headway for everything else.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

About simplicity: I have been happy running my bass through an IMG preamp (no eq, just for phantom power), straight into the effects in of my WW. For eq'ing, I then use the attenuator for the 5" mid/tweeter on my Acoustic Image cabinet. Wonder whether they still have that knob on the newer AI's...

 

[Ric Vice]

Most of my experience has been that too much eq just muddles things up. The less "stuff" in the chain the better..... Have you tried taking the Headway directly into the effects return of the Shuttle? That way you're only using the Shuttle as a power source and letting the very capable Headway take care of the eq as needed. It's possible that the two eq's might be working against each other at some frequencies.

This certianly worked for me as well. Running the Headway EDB-2 into the front end of either of my Walter Woods amps gave me to much gain and a overly sensitive EQ. It sounds great directly into the effects return of the Woods.

Ric

 

[shwashwa]

for simple eq have you tried one of these? im finding that its really all i need lately, and its only subtractive, not boosting.
http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/...2b7bf6b536f9835b2d81f86735bc0_zpsb5suje11.jpg

 

[powerbass]

Great suggestion, thanks. I'll try that. I had noticed in the past that the Shuttle does a much better job of accurately reproducing the DB sound when the Mid-Cut is engaged. With the settings as pictured in my post I do NOT have the mid cut engaged. I'll let you know how your suggestion works.

That is also my experience w/my GB 3.0