no doubt about it!
per the discussion: the best reason for not using a music stand, ever, is that you can't read music in the first place.
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Memorizing songs?
- Thread starter Flatwound
- Start date
per the discussion: the best reason for not using a music stand, ever, is that you can't read music in the first place.
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
Bold of you to say that Jazz is 'pretty repetitive.' Basic standards that everyone knows which aren't complex.... sure... no need or excuse to have a chart. BUT -'standards' - while originating from set forms generally derived from the venerable ii-V7-I progression and permutations of it - are not always what they seem, especially if the pianist or guitarist is throwing in substitutions which aren't easy to ear out perfectly. Also, there's plenty of 'Real Book' material that's trickier than one might think, especially if it's a singer doing a tune in a new key, different reharmonizations beyond the 'stock' progressions, and any songs that are not 'typical' progressions (like a lot of more modern jazz that's now part of the canon). If you're doing original jazz, and you're the composer, then asking someone who hasn't done your music before to do it without a chart on the fly is not cool.
I guess Jazz 'seems repetitive' if you're not hitting every change, or are winging your way through it with just roots.... or chromatic wandering to get through fuzzy parts. I'd rather have a chart on hand JUST IN CASE, to make sure the music doesn't sound amateur, versus not having one just because of an egotistical need to not be seen with a chart somewhere.
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Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
What's the old joke? "I only know two songs: She'll Be Comin' 'Round the Mountain, and Lush Life"
So seven pages in and no one has said that a lot of this is to do with genetics and the ability to play by ear?
I have a good buddy who has fabulous pitch and has never used music in his life. He just listens to something once and plays it (on any instrument you give him). His wife is an excellent classical pianist and tried to teach him how to read music. I remember watching him play a complex classical piece (on piano) while looking out the window, but then still turning the page in the right place because he loved his wife and wanted her to think she had taught him something!
Meanwhile, as a mere mortal, I have to use music on stage as my ear is not great, and as music is very much a side hobby I don't have time to learn songs unless I have played them for years,
I have a good buddy who has fabulous pitch and has never used music in his life. He just listens to something once and plays it (on any instrument you give him). His wife is an excellent classical pianist and tried to teach him how to read music. I remember watching him play a complex classical piece (on piano) while looking out the window, but then still turning the page in the right place because he loved his wife and wanted her to think she had taught him something!
Meanwhile, as a mere mortal, I have to use music on stage as my ear is not great, and as music is very much a side hobby I don't have time to learn songs unless I have played them for years,
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RE the above, here's an example of him not reading music and being distracted while his kid waves the camera about - unfortunately you can't get this good with practice, it is very much genetic!
You can memorize songs, if you have to. I subbed at a jazz gig a few days ago. And the bassline on one of the songs was so complicated that I couldn't read music at the same time. So I memorized it. In the past I've noticed that when I start to play the song from sheet music I will keep playing it like that and I keep needing the sheet to cheat. However in a cover band I memorized all songs I never needed to read them again. There should be some incentive for them to memorize the songs. Looking more professional is one.
I have one at church for this reason... they will sometimes pull out a new song I've never even heard during a half hour rehearsal before the service. So I write my own number charts in those situations.
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
I'll somewhat disagree on this. I Got Rhythm is a very set, standard song form (on which a lot of other jazz tunes, etc. are based). Once you have the chords down, you can improvise (and play the melody) without looking at that chart. It's not genetics.... it's learning a form. Having a good ear and relative pitch to improvise and pick up on other things that you hear in the moment.... that's practice AND genetics to some degree. Some people do have a better sense of relative pitch than others from the start.... but it can be learned/refined.
...yes that may have been a bad example - but twenty years of knowing him and he's played at the highest levels never using music - how about having a day off and making a mash-up of a UK TV theme tune & the Simpsons theme tune, playing drums, bass, guitar, piano, Trombone and Trumpet (this sort of ability isn't normal):
https://youtube.com/shorts/Ty3zDvVp11U?si=KOtyI8b0wVt_Lx4M
Turnaround
Commercial User
I would like to be able to work without my ipad on my mic stand, but with over 800 songs in the band's repertoire and the extent of my memory, I'm afraid it's a necessity.
Genetic? Come on...anybody can do it if they put in the time and effort.
I've seen string quartets where the members know the music, and play without music stands. Seeing them play off each other makes the performance much more enjoyable. A whole symphony orchestra like that would be fantastic!
...I agree anyone can learn a song if they put in the time and effort, but how easy someone finds this task, and more generally the ability to hear pitch and then improvise based on this, is very much genetic. Yes of course it is a spectrum thing with most people able to do it to a certain extent (and hence there is a certain learning effect), but at the same time there is a scientific literature out there about this showing that some people simply find it much easier than others: Invalid Link Removed
I agree with you, I see tablets all the time, it’s ok to glance or zip thru words, but not stare at it the whole time. I do have to admit, I was playing at a jam, the singer/guitarist had a tablet he was using. I stepped over close to see what song he was going to play. I saw a “F” chord listed. I had to step away to play but I knew there was a f somewhere in the song! Got it right!
I’m not sure how this applies. I actually have a great ear - I can easily figure bass, guitar and keyboard parts just listening to them. But I suspect most of us use stands for the sheer volume of songs we need to know. Especially for one-off fill in gigs.
Could I memorize the 200+ songs for my current gig? Probably. But at what cost? We play about 40 most of the time and I’m slowly getting off book for them. But I’d rather have something in front of me for when the BL calls out that one song that hasn’t been played in 6 months.
The rest of the band doesn’t use notation on stage - but they’ve been together for 14 years… me… 3.5 months. I’m pretty sure 14 years from now if I’m still in the band I won’t be looking at music.
The biggest issues I've seen with this are vocalists and using references as a crutch too much for an actual show. I will admit that vocals are hader to remember than anything (I do them as the primary sometimes). Especially when the lyrics are different enough but not significantly different when you move through the song. But when you have people who are clearly just going by ear on melodies and reading lyrics they haven't put time into it. And it's not okay.
I'm in four bands right now playing guitar and bass. I've had to learn over 200 songs in the last 18 months for these bands; it has been a lot of material and technique to learn. I usually have a tablet clipped to my mic stand with notes on the songs. One page. It has the tonal center/mode, chord progressions, and some key notes if there's something interesting to remember. Generally I don't have to use these while playing but every once and awhile I'll forget something and it's good to be able to glance and see what I'm supposed to be playing.
Guitar for me is actually super easy for me to remember what is going on. The more changes/lead parts added in, the more it sticks in my brain. Bass tends to be the worst: it's a lot of things that look exactly the same as other things in other songs. It's easy to get mixed up and forget which song it is, so being able to glance at some notes is a huge help.
I'm all over the stage when I play, so it's not like I"m standing in front of my mic stand sight reading. There's a spectrum for this, and I think OP and others are a bit extreme on "if you can't remember it 100% of the time, you aren't practicing enough". I practice a lot. A lot. But I have a hard time remembering which songs are which when a bunch of them are C major but slightly flipped progressions.
I'm in four bands right now playing guitar and bass. I've had to learn over 200 songs in the last 18 months for these bands; it has been a lot of material and technique to learn. I usually have a tablet clipped to my mic stand with notes on the songs. One page. It has the tonal center/mode, chord progressions, and some key notes if there's something interesting to remember. Generally I don't have to use these while playing but every once and awhile I'll forget something and it's good to be able to glance and see what I'm supposed to be playing.
Guitar for me is actually super easy for me to remember what is going on. The more changes/lead parts added in, the more it sticks in my brain. Bass tends to be the worst: it's a lot of things that look exactly the same as other things in other songs. It's easy to get mixed up and forget which song it is, so being able to glance at some notes is a huge help.
I'm all over the stage when I play, so it's not like I"m standing in front of my mic stand sight reading. There's a spectrum for this, and I think OP and others are a bit extreme on "if you can't remember it 100% of the time, you aren't practicing enough". I practice a lot. A lot. But I have a hard time remembering which songs are which when a bunch of them are C major but slightly flipped progressions.
