Mesa Strategy and Prodigy discontinued. Also PH cabs.

[agedhorse]

I don't know anything about the design of the Strategy and Prodigy, so I don't know if my comments here will be of any benefit.

My CTM300 is set up really well to deal with aging tubes and tube failures: 1. Built in bias meter, 2. individual bias control for each tube, 3. each tube is fused. 4. tubes can be removed and replaced through a removable top panel in the head case. For someone with very basic skills and a couple of screw drivers, this amp is extremely easy to maintain.

I think I have had two EHX KT88s pull fuses in this amp. On both occasions I pulled the chassis from the headcase to check for burned resistors but all components were fine. On each occasion the fix involved replacing the tube and fuse, and resetting the bias.

I believe this amp runs 750V on the plates and I frequently check the bias to see how much drift is occurring in the tubes. Really nice to be able to do all of this with out cracking the case open.

It's not particularly the bias drift that's the cause (but it does or can contribute). There other parameters that also drift, things like the ratio of screen to plate current under load (especially overdrive) and temperature become very important at high voltages. When these drift a lot between tubes, it can become a real problem.

I have designed some pretty sophisticated biasing schemes (some buried within tube amps, and some similar ones buried within solid state amps), but just when you think you have everything foolproof, something new and different comes along to cause a re-think of the original concepts.

I could design a tube amp along the lines of the industrial/commercial equipment that I used to service, but they would be larger, heavier and much more expensive. They would last a lifetime and be relatively troublefree with questionable tonal qualities and likely commercially unsuccessful though. I used to service industrial servo amps based on 6550's, un-freekin-believably robust and very audio like amps that would run 24/7 for several years without the need for service/retube.

 

[Wasnex]

I'm talk about tubes in general mesa go above and beyond.. Hope that clarifies

It's definitely possible to buy tubes that have not been burned in, tested and matched. I agree with you, this is a bad idea, especially with expensive output tubes like KT88s.

 

[red_rhino]

" Now's your chance to speak up!". Just wondering, in your research, do you find that the Contour function, or whatever name you want to call it, on amps is still a viable feature on modern amps? Taking a small poll from local bass players, I've discovered that not a one uses this feature. Myself, I would much rather see an onboard compressor, but I'm probably in the minority there.

I for one do use contour or voicing controls. To me, it's just another EQ parameter that I can tweak as needed to dial in the tonal character I want in a given venue. I don't always set it to the same value, the same way I don't always set my other tone controls to the same value; it's dependent on the needs of the moment. For that reason, I prefer them to be infinitely variable, or failing that, having enough settings to allow me some granularity in the settings.

As for onboard compressors, the only one I've ever liked was on the M9 Carbine. But given the number of great compressor pedals available, I think that players who use one would rather find the one the works best for them. Compressors seem like an amp feature that just complicates things.

Ah, the "bedroom tone knob" - important mass market feature. No way are they going to eliminate that one .

One thing I don't like are contour "switches", that (dis)engage a set EQ curve. Kind of useless.

The Subway series was never intended to go after the same tone market as the Strategy/Prodigy, it's just a way different tone. There are plenty of players who do not care for the Stratigy/Prodigy, and who prefer the Subway, or the Walkabout, but the Strategy/Prodigy was never intended for that player to begin with. It's more like the Carbines, in your face, brash, knock you over your head with little politeness hard rock and metal amp.

Can you clarify this statement for me? Are you saying the Carbines are more like the Subway series, or more like the Strategy/Prodigy? Thanks.

 

[agedhorse]

I recently got the opportunity to try out a Subway D-800+. Was very pleased with how it sounded. I was able to dial in a somewhat similar tone to my D-180 (though not quite as bite your face off aggressive) by cranking the gain.

The aggressive tone family is pretty much what Randy is known for and it's quite well accepted in the harder rock and metal worlds. The Subway, like the Walkabout were a deliberate approach to a more main stream, middle of the road tone family. The aggressive voicings of Randy's products pair well to tweeterless cabinets too, but can rip your face off with a brighter cabinet. The industry has been slowly migrating towards a little brighter cabinet voicings over the past 15 years, this is a natural progression that favors voicings like the Subway amp IMO.

I wonder if the issues with KT-88 reliability can be somewhat mitigated by biasing the tubes colder? Though of course this would also result in less power.

A little bit, but this is not one of the primary parameters that are drifting and skewing off of norm. It's a lot more complicated than even I thought as I analyzed the KT-88 family in general and what happens mathematically when certain parameters drift or change (sometimes pretty radically) under high plate and screen voltage conditions.

 

[agedhorse]

Can you clarify this statement for me? Are you saying the Carbines are more like the Subway series, or more like the Strategy/Prodigy? Thanks.

Sorry for the confusion, the Carbines are more in the Strategy/Prodigy tone family (aggressive, more in your face, brash). The Walkabouts and Subways are more middle of the road, probably a better fit for a wider range of players and music styles IMO. There will always be exceptions of course.

 

[Wasnex]

It's not particularly the bias drift that's the cause (but it does or can contribute). There other parameters that also drift, things like the ratio of screen to plate current under load (especially overdrive) and temperature become very important at high voltages. When these drift a lot between tubes, it can become a real problem.

I have designed some pretty sophisticated biasing schemes (some buried within tube amps, and some similar ones buried within solid state amps), but just when you think you have everything foolproof, something new and different comes along to cause a re-think of the original concepts.

I could design a tube amp along the lines of the industrial/commercial equipment that I used to service, but they would be larger, heavier and much more expensive. They would last a lifetime and be relatively troublefree with questionable tonal qualities and likely commercially unsuccessful though. I used to service industrial servo amps based on 6550's, un-freekin-believably robust and very audio like amps that would run 24/7 for several years without the need for service/retube.

I think I may have buried my main point in the last post. If you design a new all tube amp, consider the CTM300's fault tolerance and user serviceability features, which are especially nice when tubes have a high failure rate. IMHO this amp takes a decidedly low tech approach...big heavy components and no digital circuitry.

 

[BluesyCat]

I had a Prodigy. Gigged it once. Studio practiced a ton with it and everyone loved it! Very sad to hear these are going away.

 

[agedhorse]

I think I may have buried my main point in the last post. If you design a new all tube amp, consider the CTM300's fault tolerance and user serviceability features, which are especially nice when tubes have a high failure rate. IMHO this amp takes a decidedly low tech approach...big heavy components and no digital circuitry.

Gottcha. Agreed, simple yet thorough approaches always seem to work out better in the long run.

 

[nutdog]

questionable tonal qualities and likely commercially unsuccessful

This describes every band I’ve ever been in.

 

[pigpen1]

There are some challenges like this in the guitar world, but the 6L6 is still (mostly) a well built tube, and many of the amps do not run these tubes as hard as the KT-88 (which has a unique tone and overdrive character at high voltages because of how the screen current interact with the plate current and the harmonics that this introduces. The driver topology is also quite different, actually much of the power amp circuit is quite different compared specifically to the Strategy/Prodigy.

Over the years, I have seen consistency issues (in a variety of applications) with EL-84's, much of it mechanical where after a few hundred heating/cooling cycles there is enough change in internal structure that they will make some mechanical noise. The is 100% a tube issue, as it occurs regardless of the amp the tube is used in. There is a little bit of this in the El-34 as well, but nowhere near the extent. The 6V6 is a pretty stout little tube, relatively trouble-free but like the EL-84, is limited to lower powered applications.

The Subway series was never intended to go after the same tone market as the Strategy/Prodigy, it's just a way different tone. There are plenty of players who do not care for the Stratigy/Prodigy, and who prefer the Subway, or the Walkabout, but the Strategy/Prodigy was never intended for that player to begin with. It's more like the Carbines, in your face, brash, knock you over your head with little politeness hard rock and metal amp.

Hope this helps.

Definately helps. A good friend of mine plays the Mark V and its a rock solid amp. The best thing he ever did with it though, in my opinion is to swap the 6l6's for el34's.

I tried the prodigy and it was a good amp, but I'm one of those that preferred the subway. I think it can do way more than rock and metal too.

 

[BogeyBass]

If you took the time to read and comprehend what I said, you would have realized that I didn't say bad tubes. I was very clear that for a hot rodded amp (which is what these amps were designed to be from the very beginning, and what the players who bought them were looking for in tube performance), the challenge was finding tubes with consistency and lack of drift at the higher limits of the performance curves. We could go through a thousand tubes with no problems out in the field, then end up with problems due to some pretty off-spec tubes that had drifted or aged greatly from their test values, yet others in the set would be just fine. Then we would get more good tubes. It was mostly how the tubes aged inconsistently, and this has been a well documented problem throughout the industry which is why many designers choose to stay well away from the limits of performance. This is much more of a "race car" type amp design, for the player who wants something that is not the same as the "average" amp. That's how it was presented, marketed and supported.

Ageing occurs in all tubes, and most tubes follow a pretty well defined set of curves as they age. It's the outliers that are the the issue for all designs, but very conservative designs (and I am by nature myself a conservative designer) can avoid many (but not all) such issues by giving up certain performance aspects (especially under heavy overdrive). That was never the goal of the Strategy/Prodigy, it was for the player who was looking for the ultimate amp FOR THAT KIND OF PERFORMANCE and willing to take risks on tube life (though the earlier ageing failures were not anticipated, but that's why we have the longest warranty on tubes of any manufacturer and we stood behind this extended warranty too) The challenge for any manufacturer is how to identify inconsistent ageing and which specific tubes in a production lot are going to be the outliers as all start out in spec and remain so for generally quite some time. Much of this is out of our control as an amp manufacturer, because we have no control over the tube manufacturing process details. Our experience has shown that recently the failure rate due to outliers has been increasing, which makes this kind of amp less and less realistic to produce going forward knowing what we do.

I'm being pretty darn transparent here, there's a lot of thought (and a little sadness) that goes into the decision to discontinue any successful high end product such as these amps.

Understood. As well as the sadness.

But a tube is a tube.
And point was trying make is most buyers want the simplicity. And the aesthetics.

Lots sales to be made. Lots of buyers just not hitting it. Tubes are the easy part. Humans are the hard part

Musicians want the tone and romance of tubes. Trying to push the envelope on 100 year old technology can lead to problems your facing. Not only the engineering but the actual look of the amp and artist endorsments which sell the amps.

I thought mesa learned their lesson with packing to many tubes and too many lights n switches in a case. And too much voltage.

Well back to the drawing board.

 

[mikeswals]

Almost no failures with JJ KT88s and they seem to hold their matching pretty well. I have about 40 JJ KT88s in service. I'll be buying more of these, but first I need a quad of the special run Shuguang/Ruby KT88V-STR.

I havent had issues with the JJ's either.
I ordered my Strategy brand new shortly after they came out. The early amps had Shaugaung tubes and they were pretty crap, but Mesa changed to JJ, and so I switched em and theve been flawless for past two years. i shouldnt need to change these for another 8 or so years.

 

[mikeswals]

If we are kicking around ideas, I'll mention that I shy away from amps that don't have bias pots. Bonus points if you can access the pot without removing the chassis. I'm not skilled enough to retro fit a pot.

Yes The Strat/Prodigy does have bias pots.

 

[Anachronism]

I could double your sales in 3 months.

If you could, you would have done it by now. You’re just another internet blowhard muttering about how you coulda been a contender. Onto the block list.

 

[donahue]

Is Mesa done with all-tube bass heads then? That's the real question. I sure hope not. Why don't you do to the D-180 and Bass 400 what you did to the Mark Series with the Mark V? Release an all-tube bass head that captures the best features/tones from previous models. I mean, come on, that would sell. Maybe add a couple well-liked features from the Subway Series like the Voicing control and HPF/LPF etc. How could an amp like that not sell well?

 

[agedhorse]

Is Mesa done with all-tube bass heads then? That's the real question. I sure hope not. Why don't you do to the D-180 and Bass 400 what you did to the Mark Series with the Mark V? Release an all-tube bass head that captures the best features/tones from previous models. I mean, come on, that would sell. Maybe add a couple well-liked features from the Subway Series like the Voicing control and HPF/LPF etc. How could an amp like that not sell well?

This decision doesn't rule out an all tube bass head in the future, but it does allow us to gain some valuable data on the evolving state of tube industry and how changes in trade might affect either supply, reliability or quality from device to device.

 

[4SG]

Reading all these posts has got me wondering how many of the folks replying are gigging with these tube heads, and how many are doing so professionally. What percentage of the TB community is actually moving these beasts around? Compact and lightweight class D heads are unbelievably powerful and convenient and Mesa's are the best in a crowded field. I don't think for a minute that my D800 is any kind of compromise in tone. Maybe if I was an A-list pro and someone else was carrying my gear I'd think twice. But as that's not the case I'm all in for the Subway series and hope Mesa expands the cabinet line as much as possible.

 

[Plastalmonus]

Reading all these posts has got me wondering how many of the folks replying are gigging with these tube heads, and how many are doing so professionally. What percentage of the TB community is actually moving these beasts around? Compact and lightweight class D heads are unbelievably powerful and convenient and Mesa's are the best in a crowded field. I don't think for a minute that my D800 is any kind of compromise in tone. Maybe if I was an A-list pro and someone else was carrying my gear I'd think twice. But as that's not the case I'm all in for the Subway series and hope Mesa expands the cabinet line as much as possible.

Whilst not being in a professional touring band I do a lot of gigs, fill ins, recording etc and will happily travel and load in and out with either my small rig (Mesa Prodigy and Mesa PH410) or my large rig (Orange AD200 and Orange OBC810). I went the light weight way for a bit with a Darkglass and Bergantino CN212 but in the end I had to go with the fact that I really just liked the ceramic and tube combination more. When I can no longer lift my cab then I will probably look into the light weight stuff again but for now I am more than happy to deal with tubes.

 

[mikeswals]

Reading all these posts has got me wondering how many of the folks replying are gigging with these tube heads, and how many are doing so professionally. What percentage of the TB community is actually moving these beasts around?

...Maybe if I was an A list pro..

You have to remember, there are lots of types of gigs, not just major band or garage band.
If you want to know: I play average 3 weekends a month, primaily full weekends in casinos, so my amp is on 6 hours a night.
I bought my Strategy and put 100 gigs on it in that first year. That Strategy head has made me roughly $30k in gig money since I bought it. Thats quite a bit of use!

No need to be an A lister, this head only weighs 49 lbs! Its not much effort to move! Get a cart or a dolly.

 

[baxter_x]

This decision doesn't rule out an all tube bass head in the future, but it does allow us to gain some valuable data on the evolving state of tube industry and how changes in trade might affect either supply, reliability or quality from device to device.

Are you saying the future od tube amps might be a little uncertain?

It's more like the Carbines, in your face, brash, knock you over your head with little politeness hard rock and metal amp.

That's exactly what I felt when I played the Prodigy for the first time in a store a several months ago. I really felt I was playing my M9.