Mesa WD-800 vs. TT-800 tone differences

[morebass!]

Gig report on the WD. Two outdoor shows at the same venue with no PA support. First night I was doubling in my (mostly) acoustic duo and had the upright (with a Krio magnetic p/u) going through the parametric and the P without. Yes I bought the footswitch. Both basses sounded good but I was fiddling with the knobs quite a bit. To add to the complexity I run the basses through a radial tonebone bassbone which means another set of eq and gain stages. The sound was good but as I mentioned before I did miss the parametric EQ on the P. I was playing through two Baer ML 12s and a homebrew 15. One 12 and the 15 we’re off to the side of the stage. Second night was with a 3-piece blues/rock/funk band with a strong drummer and it was just the P. All three cabinets were behind me. Once I had the EQ dialed in for the P it was bliss. Bumped up at 100, hi pass around 50, and cut at 1000. Old roundwounds fingerstyle. Just about perfect. Gain at 5, master at 4 gave me just enough of a rough edge when I dug in. Loud and proud at 2.7 ohms.

 

[agedhorse]

I generally don’t recommend using a voiced external preamp with a voiced amp like the WD. Conflicting voicings can create issues like what you experienced.

As an alternative, you can run your external preamp into the amp’s effects return to bypass the amp’s voicing and eq.

 

[morebass!]

Thanks I understand that. The tonebone has a flat setting for the bass guitar channel and a three band EQ for upright. So it’s not really that complex. I really like the WA preamp and would hate to forsake that for the radial. I just need to futz a while longer till I find the sweet spot for both instruments. But if I can’t find it I may do as you suggest.

 

[agedhorse]

Thanks I understand that. The tonebone has a flat setting for the bass guitar channel and a three band EQ for upright. So it’s not really that complex. I really like the WA preamp and would hate to forsake that for the radial. I just need to futz a while longer till I find the sweet spot for both instruments. But if I can’t find it I may do as you suggest.

I don't think the Tonebone is flat, but voiced (even in the flat position).

 

[morebass!]

You may be right, I ‘m just going by the manual which says it is flat. But even if it isn’t flat it seems very common to run a voiced signal into the front end of an amp. Most effects pedals have a voice, correct?

 

[Al Kraft]

You may be right, I ‘m just going by the manual which says it is flat. But even if it isn’t flat it seems very common to run a voiced signal into the front end of an amp. Most effects pedals have a voice, correct?

There is nothing wrong with running a voiced/shaped signal into the input of a bass head. As you mentioned effect pedals by their very definition are doing just that. The problem you can run into though with something like a SansAmp BDDI for example is that you can end up layering similar voicings on top of each other (mid scoop for instance) which has a cumulative effect. A mid scoop on the input, maybe a mid scoop in the head's inherent voicing, and possibly cabinets that also have a bit of mid scoop flavor can give you you way too much of what would have been a good thing in just a single serving size.

At the end of the day all that matters is that you like the sound. There are some great posts in the effects forum that address issues like layering of EQs on top of each other and thoughts about the order of effects in a signal chain to achieve various outcomes.

 

[12bass]

You may be right, I ‘m just going by the manual which says it is flat. But even if it isn’t flat it seems very common to run a voiced signal into the front end of an amp. Most effects pedals have a voice, correct?

Why not run the external preamp into the AUX Input, with one bass going straight into the WD-800's front end and the other going through the Tonebone/AUX? That effectively provides two separately adjustable channels without cascading EQ issues.

 

[morebass!]

Why not run the external preamp into the AUX Input, with one bass going straight into the WD-800's front end and the other going through the Tonebone/AUX? That effectively provides two separately adjustable channels without cascading EQ issues.

That would seem to work. I could use the Tonebone channel switching footswitch as a mute for the upright when playing the Fender. To mute the fender, which would be plugged straight into the input of WD, I’d just roll off the volume on the instrument. Unfortunately I’d lose the WD’s hi-pass for the upright but there is one on the radial (not as nice) so maybe ok. Worth a try.

 

[Old Fart]

After spending only a week with my new WD, I wonder if there is any tone I can't achieve with it.

Oh wait. There is a tone I can't seem to get. A "bad" tone. It won't seem to do that.

 

[Al Kraft]

After spending only a week with my new WD, I wonder if there is any tone I can't achieve with it.

Oh wait. There is a tone I can't seem to get. A "bad" tone. It won't seem to do that.

...while it is possible, it's not easy to do!

 

[morebass!]

That would seem to work. I could use the Tonebone channel switching footswitch as a mute for the upright when playing the Fender. To mute the fender, which would be plugged straight into the input of WD, I’d just roll off the volume on the instrument. Unfortunately I’d lose the WD’s hi-pass for the upright but there is one on the radial (not as nice) so maybe ok. Worth a try.

There are issues with both the aux input and the effects return:
1) Plugging the upright/Radial into the aux input bypasses the input gain on the mesa. The upright's output is less than that of the bass guitar. An example of settings needed to keep them at comparable volume levels is a) upright/radial level all the way up; b) bass guitar volume knob at 70% and Mesa gain at about 10:30. This is fairly extreme on both ends so it limits my flexibility e.g I can't get a dirtier signal on the bass guitar. Not a deal-killer for my doubling gigs.
2) Plugging the Radial/upright into the return jack of the effects loop causes no signal to be passed from the front input jack where my bass guitar is plugged in. This is a deal-killer.

I'll have to play around with this more to know whether the weird gain structure and loss of the Mesa's front end while using the aux input is better than putting both instruments through the radial into the Mesa input and dealing with the cascading EQs. Pros and cons either way.

 

[agedhorse]

There are issues with both the aux input and the effects return:
1) Plugging the upright/Radial into the aux input bypasses the input gain on the mesa. The upright's output is less than that of the bass guitar. An example of settings needed to keep them at comparable volume levels is a) upright/radial level all the way up; b) bass guitar volume knob at 70% and Mesa gain at about 10:30. This is fairly extreme on both ends so it limits my flexibility e.g I can't get a dirtier signal on the bass guitar. Not a deal-killer for my doubling gigs.
2) Plugging the Radial/upright into the return jack of the effects loop causes no signal to be passed from the front input jack where my bass guitar is plugged in. This is a deal-killer.

I'll have to play around with this more to know whether the weird gain structure and loss of the Mesa's front end while using the aux input is better than putting both instruments through the radial into the Mesa input and dealing with the cascading EQs. Pros and cons either way.

For both signal paths to be active, you would need to use the aux input rather than the effects return.

In either case, you will need to use a preamp to provide gain to the acoustic pickup's signal. I assumed that you were doing this already.

 

[morebass!]

In either case, you will need to use a preamp to provide gain to the acoustic pickup's signal. I assumed that you were doing this already.

Are you suggesting adding yet another preamp? The Radial is adding gain to the upright's signal, but maybe not enough. I could use the boost feature on the Radial but then I wouldn't have any reserve for solos/keeping up with spontaneous band volume increases.

 

[Wasnex]

Are you suggesting adding yet another preamp? The Radial is adding gain to the upright's signal, but maybe not enough. I could use the boost feature on the Radial but then I wouldn't have any reserve for solos/keeping up with spontaneous band volume increases.

The most important thing is use the Aux IN which is distinctly different than the Effects Return. The is because the Effects Return interrupts the signal from the amps pre.

Try the Radial into the Aux IN, and if there is not enough gain, then you will need an additional preamp.

Per the OM, the sensitivity of the Aux IN is exactly the same as the Effects Return. The input impedance of the Aux In is 10K vs 20K for the Effects Return.

 

[agedhorse]

I'm not sure which Radial device you are actually using, but IIRC, most are designed for instrument lvel in and out which won't be enough to drive a line level input. The bosst may provide enough level, but using it will take this feature away for solo use.

There are quite a few preamps that are designed around instrument level in and line level out (the Subway and Rosette preamps are that way, there are plenty of others as well)

 

[Wasnex]

From the Bassbone Mk2 FAQ:

Can I use the Bassbone V2 as a preamp and plug directly into a power amplifier?

The Bassbone V2 produces an instrument level output that is between -30dB to -15dB depending on the output of the instrument you are using. Most PA type power amplifiers are designed for line level -10dB or +4dB input levels which may not make the Bassbone V2 suitable. Some amps are however equipped with instrument level inputs that can be used.
​

 

[agedhorse]

From the Bassbone Mk2 FAQ:

Can I use the Bassbone V2 as a preamp and plug directly into a power amplifier?

The Bassbone V2 produces an instrument level output that is between -30dB to -15dB depending on the output of the instrument you are using. Most PA type power amplifiers are designed for line level -10dB or +4dB input levels which may not make the Bassbone V2 suitable. Some amps are however equipped with instrument level inputs that can be used.
​

I think this may be the problem, though he stated that he was using a Tonebone (there are several models of Tonebone).

The aux input and effects return on the amp are line level and will handle (off the top of my head) a range from about -10dB to +20dB.

 

[morebass!]

I'm using the Bassbone Version 2 (it is the yellow color scheme, not the more recent black and red model which is also called the Bassbone Version 2). So it looks like the numbers you're coming up with are consistent with my observation that the Bassbone needs just a bit more juice to go through the Aux jack. Actually I think it would work ok for me but it's not optimal. I'll probably go back to "plan A" and deal with the cascading EQs which is something that will just take a little time to tweak and then I'll mostly just "set and forget". I don't like the idea of adding another preamp. I like to keep things simple. agedhorse and Wasnex - thanks for your help!

 

[rkwells101]

Hi guys, like the original OP I am looking @ both of these amps. The most important difference I can glean from the group is that the TT have less options for tone shaping because of the eq controls. Am I being too basic by suggesting that this problem could be solved by adding a really good eq pedal into the chain? By doing this would you be able to dial in any pattern (scooped or upside down happy face)?

 

[Al Kraft]

Hi guys, like the original OP I am looking @ both of these amps. The most important difference I can glean from the group is that the TT have less options for tone shaping because of the eq controls. Am I being too basic by suggesting that this problem could be solved by adding a really good eq pedal into the chain? By doing this would you be able to dial in any pattern (scooped or upside down happy face)?

I think EQ curve shape can be easily addressed by both the WD and TT. An outboard EQ will offer additional capability for either. The WD gives you a lot of tone and voicing shaping "within and around the WD's deliberate voicing starting point".

The TT offers a surprising amount of tone shaping despite having fewer controls, on top of which you also get two differently voiced preamps in the TT to use as your starting point. I think the real standout difference is in the inherent design voicing for the prepamps of the two heads. The controls offered are to complement the design goals for the amps to match what one would expect from the heads that served as the inspiration for those voicings.