Mesa WD-800 vs. TT-800 tone differences

[CaptainWally]

I know there is a monster TT-800 thread, but I couldn't make it through the 100+ pages. In this thread, I'd like to narrow the topic to:

"I know all about the WD-800. How is the TT-800 similar/different in terms of tone?"

 

[lug]

It's very similar and yet can be totally different. Glad I could help.

 

[HearNoStevil]

One has bloom, the other is bloomier.

 

[CaptainWally]

Uh, thanks

 

[pfschim]

I'm interested in this question as well, just to hear someone who has used both (which apparently the first 2 responders have not) articulate how these 2 amps compare.
I am very satisfied with my WD800 and don't feel any need for the TT, but am still interested to hear a real compare.

 

[CaptainWally]

Perhaps Señor Caballo can be of some help.

@agedhorse

 

[agedhorse]

The WD is modeled after the Walkabout, the TT is modeled after the Bass 400+ and D-800+.

Different flavors, the TR is of course channel switching between the two onboard channels OR you can substitute a preamp of your choice in place of one of the onboard preamps.

 

[Al Kraft]

I will share my observations with the caveat that your ears and expectations are likely calibrated differently than mine. I have owned WA's since the beginning and the WA is one of my favorite heads...so I am a tad biased.

As has been said the WD is a new take on the WA. Basically you get WA inspired voicing, but with some additional tone shaping controls and the ability to crank the volume and have the tone you dial in remain focused. There is a lot of user control over the voicing (more than the original WA) and while the head sounds good with everything pretty much straight-up/neutral, you can set the head up to get a broad range of voicings including the degree of speaker damping to give you a looser or tighter feel. It is what many of us always wanted the WA to be (able to do WA at higher volumes without getting out of control/too wooly/overly blooming in the low end). As a bonus, the WD also gave us some additional user control flexibility and a few other modern amp features.

I honestly didn't expect to like the TT all that much...I just found a happy place more easily with other heads than the 400/400+ and am mainly a clean player. It surprised me when I started playing it and found it incredibly appealing. To my ear the TT's Boogie channel has a very rich tone that quickly became addicting to play. That channel is just full and rich sounding in a way that I am not used to in hybrid heads - and it does clean just fine. The SW channel seems a little brighter/more open than the D-800 or D-800+ and a little less WA-like than the WD. By that I mean that the SW channel has some tube richness that adds harmonic interest, but it's more cleanly and sharply focused note to note than the TT channel or the WD.

It pains me to say it, but I think for the money the TT might be the best choice for most folks from a "two great amps for the price of one" perspective. I still like the WD as a long term WA fan, and it has qualities that make it very desirable in terms of greater user adjustment in tone shaping. However, the TT has more adjustablity than you might expect from the few controls on each channel and it is very easy to dial in. It's a bit like comparing a sports car with an automatic transmission (the TT) to one with a manual transmission (the WD) - less operator control input and less knowledge of optimal gear selection are required to get the full range of performance capability.

I hope some of that is helpful.

 

[sunbeast]

I’ll preface by saying that I haven’t tried the WD yet, but have used a Walkabout for several years, used a 400+ for several years, and also have a TT800.
As mentioned, the biggest difference from a user standpoint is adjustability- the WD just has more EQ controls to work with, and can get much more surgical.
The TT on the Boogie channel has a Fender-based EQ that shifts more broad/gentle EQ curves with the controls rather than allowing any sort of surgical control (the only really linear control is the HPF). It may sound quite limiting, but this type of EQ allows pretty wide shifts without ever sounding bad. The Gain/Deep/Bright switches all have significant power on the voicing that you are able to shift. If you aren’t used to this kind of tone stack it may not be very intuitive- it’s definitely the kind of EQ that you have to close your eyes to dial in, in the sense that “all knobs at noon” doesn’t really have any meaningful significance. As someone with years of experience playing the 400+, it didn’t take me much work to find something similar to the tones I loved in that amp. The drive characteristics are naturally quite different, but the compression and drive of the Boogie channel is definitely some of the most organic I’ve heard from a non-tube head. Compared to the Walkabout, the voicing of the Boogie channel is inherently much clearer and less wooly- I’ve heard the WD is clearer than the Walkabout too, so that comparison may not carry over as much. If you do a lot of specific tweaking with the semi-parametric controls on the WD, then the Boogie channel might be frustrating for you- I personally never really use those controls on my Walkabout except to cut out some subs (the HPFs on the TT do this much better!) and possibly some minor mid cuts in certain situations (though very rare).

I’ve spent less time playing with the Subway channel of the TT, but it is definitely on the more “surgical” side of tweakability while retaining some of the organic vibe of the Boogie channel. Compared to the Boogie channel, it feels a bit “flat” but that’s not necessarily a bad thing for when that big Boogie voice is a bit too much. I’m not really a channel-switching kind of player, but the tone of the Subway channel is different enough that it may as well be a different amp- so pretty cool to have available for different types of gig situations. It is definitely much clearer and snappy than the Walkabout.

 

[HearNoStevil]

As someone with years of experience playing the 400+, it didn’t take me much work to find something similar to the tones I loved in that amp. The drive characteristics are naturally quite different, but the compression and drive of the Boogie channel is definitely some of the most organic I’ve heard from a non-tube head.

I wholeheartedly agree. For someone who uses a 400+ for overdrive, the fact that the TT-800's overdrive characteristics are sooooo different was a huge disappointment when I bought mine. And in that regard, the 800 sounds absolutely unequivocally nothing whatsoever like a 400+. The drive and overdrive tone and characteristics have absolutely no relation whatsoever to the Bass 400+. You simply can't get the same overdrive tone without using at least a 12ax7, regardless of the tone stack or other tweaks; the TT-800 is a completely different beast.

However, I agree that the compression and drive of the 800's Boogie channel is nice, very organic and easily playable. Those qualities of the amp are great. I just feel wholeheartedly that it is wrong to try to promote the Boogie channel as a "Bass 400+ with a Class D power section." It's not, and it is impossible for it to accomplish what the 400+ can do when you overdrive either the preamp, power amp, or both.

But, out of the Subway amps, as I've stated numerous times on this forum, the TT-800 is the only one that is anyway somewhat similar to the behemoth MESA/Boogie 400+ heads of old, as long as you don't expect anything remotely in the same league from its overdrive. It's a completely different amp and a completely different sound, regardless of the tone stack/eq and fancy output controls. And in actuality, it does actually make a nice, usable slight overdrive. But, in all honesty, in that regard again (overdrive), it bears no resemblance to the Bass 400+.

But taken as its own amp, the TT-800 is a great lil amp.

 

[sunbeast]

I wholeheartedly agree. For someone who uses a 400+ for overdrive, the fact that the TT-800's overdrive characteristics are sooooo different was a huge disappointment when I bought mine. And in that regard, the 800 sounds absolutely unequivocally nothing whatsoever like a 400+. The drive and overdrive tone and characteristics have absolutely no relation whatsoever to the Bass 400+. You simply can't get the same overdrive tone without using at least a 12ax7, regardless of the tone stack or other tweaks; the TT-800 is a completely different beast.

However, I agree that the compression and drive of the 800's Boogie channel is nice, very organic and easily playable. Those qualities of the amp are great. I just feel wholeheartedly that it is wrong to try to promote the Boogie channel as a "Bass 400+ with a Class D power section." It's not, and it is impossible for it to accomplish what the 400+ can do when you overdrive either the preamp, power amp, or both.

But, out of the Subway amps, as I've stated numerous times on this forum, the TT-800 is the only one that is anyway somewhat similar to the behemoth MESA/Boogie 400+ heads of old, as long as you don't expect anything remotely in the same league from its overdrive. It's a completely different amp and a completely different sound, regardless of the tone stack/eq and fancy output controls. And in actuality, it does actually make a nice, usable slight overdrive. But, in all honesty, in that regard again (overdrive), it bears no resemblance to the Bass 400+.

But taken as its own amp, the TT-800 is a great lil amp.

I think they’ve gone out of their way to not call the TT an updated 400+, the same way as they went out of their way to not call the WD a “more powerful Walkabout”. Both amps are new designs inspired by classic Mesa heads, with trade-offs and benefits. There was a thread that served as a bit of a survey of interest that helped lead to the development of the TT, and one of the conclusions there was that most people seemed to want the feel of tubes in a smaller/lighter package with higher headroom. I don’t think overdrive was ever as important to the design as trying to emulate the dynamic feel of power tubes. In that sense, I think they really did something special- I can honestly say I’ve never played a solid-state head that felt as tube-like as the TT at high-volume.

I also loved the overdrive of the 400+, more so than the overdrive from any other amp I’ve owned including a number of other all-tube heads (including three different varieties of SVT and a Mesa D-180). The TT definitely doesn’t/couldn’t have that same overdrive, but the overdrive it does have sounds pretty pleasing to me. I think the general tone of the TT is VERY similar to the 400+, and with some drive in front of the amp I can get something I’m just as happy with tonally. I’ve long ago turned to a combo of drive pedals and tube power to get my tones as my ability to play at crushing volume at gigs has dropped significantly, and in that respect the TT feels better than any other solid-state head I’ve owned. Whether it will replace my cranked Mesa Prodigy at half-power in that role is unlikely, but I won’t discount it!

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

I will share my observations with the caveat that your ears and expectations are likely calibrated differently than mine. I have owned WA's since the beginning and the WA is one of my favorite heads...so I am a tad biased.

As has been said the WD is a new take on the WA. Basically you get WA inspired voicing, but with some additional tone shaping controls and the ability to crank the volume and have the tone you dial in remain focused. There is a lot of user control over the voicing (more than the original WA) and while the head sounds good with everything pretty much straight-up/neutral, you can set the head up to get a broad range of voicings including the degree of speaker damping to give you a looser or tighter feel. It is what many of us always wanted the WA to be (able to do WA at higher volumes without getting out of control/too wooly/overly blooming in the low end). As a bonus, the WD also gave us some additional user control flexibility and a few other modern amp features.

I honestly didn't expect to like the TT all that much...I just found a happy place more easily with other heads than the 400/400+ and am mainly a clean player. It surprised me when I started playing it and found it incredibly appealing. To my ear the TT's Boogie channel has a very rich tone that quickly became addicting to play. That channel is just full and rich sounding in a way that I am not used to in hybrid heads - and it does clean just fine. The SW channel seems a little brighter/more open than the D-800 or D-800+ and a little less WA-like than the WD. By that I mean that the SW channel has some tube richness that adds harmonic interest, but it's more cleanly and sharply focused note to note than the TT channel or the WD.

It pains me to say it, but I think for the money the TT might be the best choice for most folks from a "two great amps for the price of one" perspective. I still like the WD as a long term WA fan, and it has qualities that make it very desirable in terms of greater user adjustment in tone shaping. However, the TT has more adjustablity than you might expect from the few controls on each channel and it is very easy to dial in. It's a bit like comparing a sports car with an automatic transmission (the TT) to one with a manual transmission (the WD) - less operator control input and less knowledge of optimal gear selection are required to get the full range of performance capability.

I hope some of that is helpful.

Doggone it, Al! I can only afford to buy one of them!

In your opinion, which is the least mid-scooped? And which has the best ability to dial in a Jack Bruce “Frown EQ” type of tone?

Thanks in advance, my friend!

 

[HearNoStevil]

Doggone it, Al! I can only afford to buy one of them!

In your opinion, which is the least mid-scooped? And which has the best ability to dial in a Jack Bruce “Frown EQ” type of tone?

Thanks in advance, my friend!

The TT-800 is the least mid-scooped. By a looooooooong shot.

However, for a Jack Bruce frown eq tone (reverse smiley-face, ala Bruce and Sheehan) that is a tougher thing for any of these amps to do, since they don't have a graphic. That's another place the TT-800 can't replicate the 400; I frequently use a frown eq myself, and the TT-800 just can't do that on the Boogie channel with its limited eq. It just doesn't have the flexibility.

However, the WD-800 having the parametric can get you kind of in the ballpark, due to the parametric. It's a bit more tedious to get there and not quite the same as a plain ol' frowny graphic, but if any of them have any sort of capability for that type of eq (not tone, mind you), the WD would be your best bet.

I use a very middy overdriven tone myself, not quite Jack Bruce fuzz but a similar eq/overdrive goal. I have to be honest and say that I personally believe that none of the Subway amps were designed with anything close to a Jack Bruce tone in mind; their design philosophy seems to be from the viewpoint as the opposite of that type of tone. For instance, when I sent Garey the clip of my Strategy clipping when trying to overdrive the preamp (with all rotary eq flat and the graphic bypassed with a passive P-bass), he actually said, "Who would actually use that type of tone? That's not a tone anyone would actually use" to my bewilderment. All I was doing was turning up the pregain with everything set flat with a passive P-bass and he actually acted offended that anyone would try to use overdrive like that. Mesa nowadays doesn't seem to like that type of overdriven middy bass tone, so I'm guessing that type of tone isn't taken into consideration and thus the amps aren't designed to produce it.

In summary, the Subways are more flat, more accurate, less offensive, less noticeable. An in-your-face Jack Bruce frowny eq overdriven tone is the opposite of that, so the Subways might not be the prime choice if you are chasing that type of tone.

So, while the TT-800 is less scooped, the WD has more extensive eq to kind of get to the frowny eq approach you are asking about.

 

[Al Kraft]

Doggone it, Al! I can only afford to buy one of them!

In your opinion, which is the least mid-scooped? And which has the best ability to dial in a Jack Bruce “Frown EQ” type of tone?

Thanks in advance, my friend!

HearNoStevil made some good points IMO. My ears don't quite hear the same mid-scoop voicing difference as he does between the two heads - inherently with everything at noon on the Boogie channel I do, but you can dial in a flat setting (see the back of the TT manual). His observation that the WD has a lot more user adjustability is spot on and like the SW channel on th TT it has a relatively flat EQ with all controls at noon/in their neutral positions. As for getting the JB tone (depending on which bass he was using and what years of his career you like most) I think the WD will likely the most helpful in allowing you to find something close.

As was also been mentioned by sunbeast none of the newer Mesa heads have been designed to be overdrive machines. The range of what players are looking for (just think about the number of pedals/effects out there) is simply too great for a single amp to meet every need. I think the Mesa design goal has been to be very pedal friendly and offer a touch of break-up when pushed that offers a little more interesting voicing, but is not really an "effect".

Now if you already have an effect/effects that get you the tone you like, the TT's SW channel set flat may give you a presentation more similar to his (at least compared with his Hartke set-up). However, you won't have as much mid frequency control to work with for boosting. Both heads offer a variable HPF for trimming back/tightening the lows to get more mid focus, but only the WD allows direct user access to control the power amp damping factor to get a tighter tracking type of sound.

As you know we all hear things differently, but those are my thoughts. I'd try the WD first, then the TT's SW channel and the TT's Boogie channel (you will need to use the flat setting in the specs section of the manual to avoid complete frustration). I strongly suspect that with any of these options an effects pedal or two (depending on your bass) will be necessary to get as close as possible to your tone goal.

I hope that's helpful Arthur.

 

[sunbeast]

The TT-800 is the least mid-scooped. By a looooooooong shot.

However, for a Jack Bruce frown eq tone (reverse smiley-face, ala Bruce and Sheehan) that is a tougher thing for any of these amps to do, since they don't have a graphic. That's another place the TT-800 can't replicate the 400; I frequently use a frown eq myself, and the TT-800 just can't do that on the Boogie channel with its limited eq. It just doesn't have the flexibility.

However, the WD-800 having the parametric can get you kind of in the ballpark, due to the parametric. It's a bit more tedious to get there and not quite the same as a plain ol' frowny graphic, but if any of them have any sort of capability for that type of eq (not tone, mind you), the WD would be your best bet.

I use a very middy overdriven tone myself, not quite Jack Bruce fuzz but a similar eq/overdrive goal. I have to be honest and say that I personally believe that none of the Subway amps were designed with anything close to a Jack Bruce tone in mind; their design philosophy seems to be from the viewpoint as the opposite of that type of tone. For instance, when I sent Garey the clip of my Strategy clipping when trying to overdrive the preamp (with all rotary eq flat and the graphic bypassed with a passive P-bass), he actually said, "Who would actually use that type of tone? That's not a tone anyone would actually use" to my bewilderment. All I was doing was turning up the pregain with everything set flat with a passive P-bass and he actually acted offended that anyone would try to use overdrive like that. Mesa nowadays doesn't seem to like that type of overdriven middy bass tone, so I'm guessing that type of tone isn't taken into consideration and thus the amps aren't designed to produce it.

In summary, the Subways are more flat, more accurate, less offensive, less noticeable. An in-your-face Jack Bruce frowny eq overdriven tone is the opposite of that, so the Subways might not be the prime choice if you are chasing that type of tone.

So, while the TT-800 is less scooped, the WD has more extensive eq to kind of get to the frowny eq approach you are asking about.

Actually from my testing, the Boogie channel on the TT creates a fairly mild scoop at its flattest (though the Bass and Treble controls affect frequencies across the spectrum) and most of the settings are going to be variations of a mid scoop. This doesn’t account for the addition of harmonic content from the preamp, which will fill in the mids to some degree, but as a Fender-style Tone stack it just has some degree of musical scoop built in by design. There are ample high and low mids that are tied to the Bass/Treble controls though. I am a mid lover, and don’t miss anything from this channel (but I’ve also been using outboard preamps for several years that have similar tone philosophy).
The Walkabout (and I’d assume WD as well) are capable of a flatter or mid-heavy tone just via the passive Mid control.

I don’t hear much in common between the TT and Prodigy/Strategy at all, so not sure how that relates. The preamp “drive” of those amps has more in common with the Mesa Carbine series, and the great driven tones in those amps rely heavily on pushing the power tubes IME. My Prodigy sounds glorious to me pushed by pedals in half-power mode!

Jack Bruce got his tone in the old Marshall days using diode clipping (both in his bass and via pedals) into cranked heads (in an era where most of that drive would have been power tube overdrive). I don’t think that type of drive is built into many heads (actually the old Sunn/Fender 300T distortion circuit kinda had that buzz thing going), but I think you could probably approximate it with either the WD or TT using an outboard drive or fuzz to help shape the buzz tone as he did.

 

[agedhorse]

On the TT channel, with the mid shift fully clockwise, the range of mid cut runs from within a couple dB of flat to ~9dB of cut shifted slightly higher than than mid control itself. Cutting the mid control increases the total cut to ~18dB while the frequency is a little lower. Used together the cut is a little wider too.

The Subway channel is in general fairly flat, and with the active mid control can put actual mid boost of any amount and anywhere you want it (within the range of the controls). The HPF can effectively roll off the LF extension for that middy tone.

The D-800 and D-800+ are both voiced quite flat with the voicing control CCW, plenty of mids available and with the mid eq there's no problem adding additional mids.

The O/D on the Boogie channel evolved from the 400+ and actually tracks it fairly closely for as far as it goes. In the thread where player preferences were discussed EXTENSIVELY, it was made clear by most players who contributed (over 100, including PMs) that it would be more useable for most players if the range of overdrive focused on the less heavily distorted tones spread over a wider range of the gain control. This is exactly what I did, it is more focused on overdrive than on outright distortion, and on being able to control the character of the O/D and increase useability with the HPF and gain switch in ways that the B-400+ was unable to.

Playing the Boggie channel against the 400+, the heritage of the Boogie channel is obvious, but we were not looking to recreate the 400+ (I have always been clear on this, like I was clear on the Walkabout versus WD-800) but to take the 400+ concept to where today's players wished it could go.

Is somebody wants the tone of the 400+ the way it is, then there's nothing stopping them from buying as many as they want on the used market, there's no shortage of availability. I only ask that they stop disrespecting those players who prefer and choose to play something different then they do, that's really uncool imo.

 

[Al Kraft]

It's tough to design new products for newer tastes while retaining some of the gold standard/classic/signature attributes and then not subsequently being criticized for producing poor replicas (which was never the design intent in the first place). I imagine that Aguilar, Ampeg, Fender, and GK also continually fight aspects of this same battle - at least it would appear so from posts in other threads. All have a long legacy of great iconic gear where their new products often get unfairly compared to their own classics and not judged for what they are, an updated/modern version of what people are asking for today.

 

[sunbeast]

It's tough to design new products for newer tastes while retaining some of the gold standard/classic/signature attributes and then not subsequently being criticized for producing poor replicas (which was never the design intent in the first place). I imagine that Aguilar, Ampeg, Fender, and GK also continually fight aspects of this same battle - at least it would appear so from posts in other threads. All have a long legacy of great iconic gear where their new products often get unfairly compared to their own classics and not judged for what they are, an updated/modern version of what people are asking for today.

Yeah seriously! I don’t see as much flack on Ampeg, despite decades of plastering “SVT” or “Portaflex” and even the same aesthetics on the vast majority of their products for the last 40 years. It doesn’t bother me, because I have a minimal amount of understanding of the world to not feel affronted by the fact that 1. none of these amps are going to perform like my old 70s SVT, and 2. my opinions on that have absolutely no bearing in the fact that countless people will love and use them to make great music with.

People got too much time on their hands these days to project the echo chamber of their internal frustrations and expectations onto the outside world. Share your experiences and move on, life is too short to constantly feel offended by the choices of others. Also, if you really can’t find what you want- make it for yourself.

 

[bucephylus]

Criticizing Class D powered amps for not producing the sounds of overdriven tube based power sections is kind of duh unfortunate. Seriously? Kind of 3rd grade playground bully picking on the kindergartner.

First, that is a sound that certainly distinguishes a number of historically important players. Jack Bruce, already mentioned, Felix Pappalardi, Jack Casady, and a number of others. Great. Noted. I suppose, if your intent is to replicate those artists, then Class D won’t give you the real thing. Ever. But, if so, why waste time posting criticism? Seems kind of pointless.

While I have certainly admired those players, that kind of tone NEVER appealed to my needs. I spent my early years struggling to get the tube power sections to carry CLEAN bass tones. A couple in my experience that did that pretty well were the SVT (of course) and the Sunn Model T.

For my purposes, these more recent Class D designs have eclipsed what I needed from the big tube amps, and they just continue to get better. Kudos to Andy and other current designers for their efforts.

 

[HearNoStevil]

It's tough to design new products for newer tastes while retaining some of the gold standard/classic/signature attributes and then not subsequently being criticized for producing poor replicas (which was never the design intent in the first place). I imagine that Aguilar, Ampeg, Fender, and GK also continually fight aspects of this same battle - at least it would appear so from posts in other threads. All have a long legacy of great iconic gear where their new products often get unfairly compared to their own classics and not judged for what they are, an updated/modern version of what people are asking for today.

A good point.

However, the big 4 classic tube bass amp manufacturers were Ampeg, Fender, Orange, and Mesa. All of those companies also make modern Class D amps for changing times.

However, three of those companies still make their big classic tube amps for their long-term customers who still desire that old-school tube tone: Ampeg has the SVT, Fender has the Super Bassman, and Orange has the AD-200B. Mesa used to have the Bass 400+ and then the Strategy and Prodigy. The only one of the big 4 that abandoned the big classic tube bass amp (and its long-term old school tube amp customers) and went all-in on Class D was Mesa.

I venture it is possible to design updated new products for newer tastes while also not alienating and insulting a very large section of your immensely loyal customer base that has stood by you for 35 years.