Mesa WD-800 vs. TT-800 tone differences

[jeff7bass]

Funny how a thread asking for differences between the WD800 and TT800 can go in such a different direction.

Speaking of, you should hear my old Peavey!

 

[jeff7bass]

After all of my years playing bass and to my surprise now that I’m thinking about it, I have never ever plugged into a MESA 400 Classic Tube Head.. which is why I couldn’t comment on a comparison between the TT and the original.

If the TT800 can capture some of the badass magic of the 400 and also sound like a 800+, pretty damn good. Especially for 1100 bucks.

 

[Wicked G]

Speaking of, you should hear my old Peavey!

Right!!!! Lol.

If the TT800 can capture some of the badass magic of the 400 and also sound like a 800+, pretty damn good. Especially for 1100 bucks.

I've never played out of a Bass 400 or 800+, but there is definitely some badass magic in the TT800, especially in the Boogie Channel.

I can't think of an amp that gives me that all encompassing feeling of the TT800 in a small light package. And trust me I have used a lot.

 

[Jim C]

the WD800 sounds/feels to me like an improved Walkabout. I get the sound in my head, with a front end that's powerful and flexible but intuitive, with gobs of power and the added HPF and other bells 'n' whistles, after a 5 lb weight loss. In my case, the exact same sounds I love from a Walkabout can be effortlessly squeezed out of the WD800, with the headroom and "occasionally too wide at the bottom" problems solved.

NO, NO, NO.
Admittedly, I asked God and Mesa 100 times for a more powerful WA long before the Old Horse became a member here.
I played my SVT and WA side by side for years and loved the tonal characteristics for both especially since I could get them very close to the same clean, clear, 3-D sound stage.
But Andy said it wasn't going to be a 800 watt WA due to technical reasons and I laid that dream to rest a very long time ago. I didn't read the reviews though.

Now maybe I need to revisit?
And while I have your attention, can someone put together a few words they associate most strongly with the Subway amp series? They released 4 new amps in about 4 years and I could use a guide based on your experiences. These are far more than the same basic amps with more power. When you think about that, that is a ton of new advancement in such a short period of time.

I gather the 800 is darker than the 800+. The+ has a parametric mid. etc.

 

[Al Kraft]

And while I have your attention, can someone put together a few words they associate most strongly with the Subway amp series? They released 4 new amps in about 4 years and I could use a guide based on your experiences. These are far more than the same basic amps with more power. When you think about that, that is a ton of new advancement in such a short period of time.

To me the D-800 is a small, simple, basic all SS professional head. It is the darkest tonally of the current offerings, but has good articulation and a quick, clean response. The 800+ is feature laden, with more EQ control and adjustable HPF, is inherently brighter voiced and includes a Bright switch. Like the D-800 it's a quick, tight reponse all SS head, but not sterile sounding.

The WD is a modern take on the WA with a tube based pre-amp and is not like the two earlier models (they were more Carbine/WA hybrids with some modern SS tone thrown in to my ear). The WD adds speaker damping control, a three band semi-parametric EQ, a "passive mid" hybrid circuit and also include the variable HPF. There is no voicing control or deep or bright switch - this head is one where you get to make all the adjustments to the degree you wish. Depending on your preferred WA characteristics, the WD could be mistaken for sounding/feeling like a WA but with better tonal focus at high volume. It is inherently brighter than the other two SW's IMO.

The TT is tube pre-amp based modern take on the vintage 400/400+ with a second channel that blends some characteristics of the three previous SW models (mostly the 800+ and WD IMO) with a few new twists like the overdrive symmetry control, a tube pre-amp, and a more tube amplifier typical amplifier damping setting (think between low and medium damping setting on the WD) which tracks automatically with the impedance selected. You get deep and and bright switches on this head and it seems to be at least as open in the top end as its 800+ and WD family members. There's no voicing control, and the high/low gain selector is a lot more than an input pad - it allows you to drive the pre-amp tubes harder to get added harmonics.

I think that's close to hitting the highlights with the fewest words.

 

[Jim C]

Thanks Al; allows me a much better understanding of how they sound.

 

[lomo]

I found the D800 to be too dark for my taste....loved the D800+ to bits (never thought I’d sell it) and would call it a better Carbine-massive, clean slam -I didn’t care for its’ SS OD sound -it’s the head that made me consider a HPF a critical part of my chain. Comparing the WD 800 to a Walkabout is tough because different players coaxed different tones from that head. I am definitely getting all I 1loved from the Walkabout in spades with the WD 800, in a more powerful/ tweakable box. My Walkabout settings (Passive Fender J5) were :gain 5 minutes past clean, bump lowest mids to 2:00, subtract upper mids at 1200Hz to 10:00, bass and treble at noon, passive mids at 10:00 and recently used an outboard Broughton HPF shelved around 80Hz-I get it all from the WD 800, and the pre tube harmonics are way more adjustable over a much wider gain range. For me, the WD is an improved Walkabout......but YMMV

 

[Al Kraft]

For me, the WD is an improved Walkabout......but YMMV

...I think in this case you and I are getting exactly the same mileage lomo!

I wonder if it's the redesigned preamp circuit itself, the incorporation of the HPF into the circuit, or a little of both that seems to make the WD sound so much richer and clearer harmonically in the lows and low mids. I use the Fdeck HPF-Pre Series 3 with my WA and despite that fine box, the WD's "HPF integrated" system just seems to work better.

 

[agedhorse]

...I think in this case you and I are getting exactly the same mileage lomo!

I wonder if it's the redesigned preamp circuit itself, the incorporation of the HPF into the circuit, or a little of both that seems to make the WD sound so much richer and clearer harmonically in the lows and low mids. I use the Fdeck HPF-Pre Series 3 with my WA and despite that fine box, the WD's "HPF integrated" system just seems to work better.

I think it's a combination of all these things. When I started that project, I spent a LOT of time studying what make the Walkabout tick, as well as what players liked and didn't like about it. There was a lot of helpful contributions here. For example, Chef and I had several discussions about sweetening and extending the top end so that it was a little bit more open. The WD addressed most of what players were asking for in terms of improvements, though each player has different tastes there was actually fairly clear agreement on most items.

I also spent a lot of effort trying to extend the original WA by scaling up the power amp but the WA was at a plateau where additional power would require a different topology that would not scale the same way and sound the same without serious compromise elsewhere. Then, the manufacturer of the lateral MOSFETs we were using announced that they were going to stop production for all but contract fabrication of wafers (meaning that you could buy a run of wafers and contract with a packaging house to do the packaging) but IIRC the minimum buy was something like the equivalent of 25,000 pieces of each polarity part... so 50,000 at say even $6 each is over a quarter of a million dollars on a single part. That's a lifetime supply of MOSFETs and then some. There are some alternate parts that might work but they too are contract fabbed and packaged and availability was/is inconsistent. This doesn't work for a production product, so that put an end to MOSFETs for this application... the decision was in effect made for us.

Ultimately, the WD satisfies most of the wants that players asked for, including new features that moved the amp forward about 15-20 years. For those who must have the original, there are plenty to choose from on the used market.

 

[12bass]

...
I've been designing products commercially for over 30 years, I have never pretended that any of my products was a good choice for every player. If a product does not work for YOU, that's fine, but by the same token your favorite product may not be a good choice for another player.

Bit of a sidetrack here, but I'm wondering if you'd consider designing a tube-based class D bass amp that focuses on delivering a variety of overdriven tones (for the people who aren't satisfied with just over the edge), perhaps the one that goes to ELEVEN?

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

To me the D-800 is a small, simple, basic all SS professional head. It is the darkest tonally of the current offerings, but has good articulation and a quick, clean response. The 800+ is feature laden, with more EQ control and adjustable HPF, is inherently brighter voiced and includes a Bright switch. Like the D-800 it's a quick, tight reponse all SS head, but not sterile sounding.

The WD is a modern take on the WA with a tube based pre-amp and is not like the two earlier models (they were more Carbine/WA hybrids with some modern SS tone thrown in to my ear). The WD adds speaker damping control, a three band semi-parametric EQ, a "passive mid" hybrid circuit and also include the variable HPF. There is no voicing control or deep or bright switch - this head is one where you get to make all the adjustments to the degree you wish. Depending on your preferred WA characteristics, the WD could be mistaken for sounding/feeling like a WA but with better tonal focus at high volume. It is inherently brighter than the other two SW's IMO.

The TT is tube pre-amp based modern take on the vintage 400/400+ with a second channel that blends some characteristics of the three previous SW models (mostly the 800+ and WD IMO) with a few new twists like the overdrive symmetry control, a tube pre-amp, and a more tube amplifier typical amplifier damping setting (think between low and medium damping setting on the WD) which tracks automatically with the impedance selected. You get deep and and bright switches on this head and it seems to be at least as open in the top end as its 800+ and WD family members. There's no voicing control, and the high/low gain selector is a lot more than an input pad - it allows you to drive the pre-amp tubes harder to get added harmonics.

I think that's close to hitting the highlights with the fewest words.

Excellent rundown of each, Al!
Much appreciated! I actually prefer a darker tone, with a smidge of overdrive, that’s mids-forward. Which one do you think?

 

[agedhorse]

Bit of a sidetrack here, but I'm wondering if you'd consider designing a tube-based class D bass amp that focuses on delivering a variety of overdriven tones (for the people who aren't satisfied with just over the edge), perhaps the one that goes to ELEVEN?

Maybe, will have to think about it a bit.

 

[lomo]

I am sure this appears somewhere in the progressively more complicated labyrinth of Mesa forum threads, but I have not found it: has anyone done any tube rolling with the WD 800? I did see comments stating that a 12 a U7 would give a cleaner, more defined sound, if I’m not mistaken. Any other tidbits of note?

 

[Al Kraft]

Excellent rundown of each, Al!
Much appreciated! I actually prefer a darker tone, with a smidge of overdrive, that’s mids-forward. Which one do you think?

I think the D-800 could work for you, however, I'd suggest the 800+ to get the variable HPF and more control over a broad, user selectable area of mids. For those who like mids, but don't want a gutless bottom end, I find the variable HPF used along with the bass EQ and deep switch can really help bring out upper lows/low mids (without over emphasizing lows) while keeping the tone more focussed on the mid frequencies. IME EQ alone usually doesn't do this as musically or effectively. If the 800 voicing works for you, your golden, but if you need some tweaking to get more mid focus/presence, the 800+ is the better choice of the two.

Both heads are more quick and tight than tube sounding to my ear and while the 800+ is a tad brighter than the 800, you can always trim back some top end. IMO neither one has the presence of upper mids and highs that say a GK RB/MB head does - i.e. they are a bit darker/warmer, but you can open up the 800+ more than the D-800.

If more tube flavor and feel is something you'd like and you really want the most control over all aspects of you voicing, the WD is very nice. It has more of a harmonically busy/interesting tone IMO and you can dial in some tube amp feel with the damping on low. This head will allow you to pretty much shape your tone with an emphasis in any frequency area. While it is WA inspired, it doesn't suffer from that that unfocused blooming bottom end hot mess that can be a problem when you asked the WA for huge volume. For most of us WA lovers, it is a pretty convincing substitute and a nice improvement in the more frustrating areas.

On the TT the Boogie channel has a lot of tube feel and tone to it, but starts off inherently mid scooped (its 400/400+ inspiration and associated tone stack just land it there). You can overcome that to some degree, but it is less focussed naturally on mids to my ear than any of the other SW heads. On the other hand the SW channel is relatively flat to start off (like the 800 and 800+), but you have less direct control over mid frequencies with only the single semi-parametric EQ. The TT overall has a damping factor that is a little more in the typical tube feel range and that makes the SW channel a little less SS focused sounding (it's like the WD between the medium and low damping settings). There is good note to note articulation, but it has blurrier/softer edges to notes than the in the D-800/800+ heads. If more of the tube amp attributes and artifacts are what you're after in your tone, this head is worth a listen.

I'm not a big effects user, but based on reliable reports and the few preamps and compressors I've paired the heads with, they all take pedals well and work nicely with a wide range of cabs (not just Mesa). Let me know if that helps or if there is anything more specific I can offer Arthur.

 

[paytojt]

Well my WD came in after selling TT800 and it's just what the doctor ordered. Almost complete control, hpf/bass trick, a little more high mids and slight cut 500hz, had my sound within minutes on p pickup. PJ together kept the high mid bump (1.6k), removed 500 cut, small 300 boost and PUNCH! I do notice a slight feel/gain difference between TT Boogie, but I don't miss it too much, except having a second channel.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Criticizing Class D powered amps for not producing the sounds of overdriven tube based power sections is kind of duh unfortunate. Seriously? Kind of 3rd grade playground bully picking on the kindergartner.

First, that is a sound that certainly distinguishes a number of historically important players. Jack Bruce, already mentioned, Felix Pappalardi, Jack Casady, and a number of others. Great. Noted. I suppose, if your intent is to replicate those artists, then Class D won’t give you the real thing. Ever. But, if so, why waste time posting criticism? Seems kind of pointless.

While I have certainly admired those players, that kind of tone NEVER appealed to my needs. I spent my early years struggling to get the tube power sections to carry CLEAN bass tones. A couple in my experience that did that pretty well were the SVT (of course) and the Sunn Model T.

For my purposes, these more recent Class D designs have eclipsed what I needed from the big tube amps, and they just continue to get better. Kudos to Andy and other current designers for their efforts.

I like the part most folks maybe miss on most if not all those legacy artists that are still with us or even before they had left. Even they didn't keep using that same equipment that some of us salivate over today, Jack Bruse stopped using Marshalls and was using Hartke. Jack Casady uses Aguilar and not Fender. Phil Lesh is even using Hartke as well as his Eden/Meyers stuff, hasn't used Fender Dual Showmans' in years

I remember reading John Paul Jones talking about bass gear and said something to the effect that if he had access to today's gear then, he won't have used what he did.

 

[agedhorse]

The evolutions that have occurred in bass and PA worlds really is impressive. I rode the wave both as a user and designer and there’s no way I would want to go backwards.

 

[DJ Bebop]

The evolutions that have occurred in bass and PA worlds really is impressive. I rode the wave both as a user and designer and there’s no way I would want to go backwards.

Once in a while, like just two days ago I'll pull out my Ampeg B15n. This time I A/B'd it with my WD 800 into an Aguilar GS 112. As cool as the B15 is, there's no way I'm going back, to that

 

[pfschim]

I like the part most folks maybe miss on most if not all those legacy artists that are still with us or even before they had left. Even they didn't keep using that same equipment that some of us salivate over today, Jack Bruse stopped using Marshalls and was using Hartke. Jack Casady uses Aguilar and not Fender. Phil Lesh is even using Hartke as well as his Eden/Meyers stuff, hasn't used Fender Dual Showmans' in years

I remember reading John Paul Jones talking about bass gear and said something to the effect that if he had access to today's gear then, he won't have used what he did.

Phil is also using Mesa Subway gear. I got to play at Terrapin Crossroads, his club in the SF Bay area, last year and the backline was a Mesa D800+ and 2 Subway 1x15's all dialed in really well into the house PA. I spoke with the venue tech and he said that for smaller touring gigs Phil was using the same rig.

FWIW, I got to meet Phil at the venue as well. Nice guy

 

[Lowendtech]

I have owned all four Subway models and all the pertinent info has been eloquently described by Al and Andy so I won’t try to add to that end.
All I have to add is that the WD fits my needs the best so that’s what I still own. I just love the tone, feel and adjustability of the all those luscious mids. Warm, round, fat and full. Chewy even.

sorry. Had to do that.