Mesa WD-800 vs. TT-800 tone differences

[bucephylus]

A good point.

However, the big 4 classic tube bass amp manufacturers were Ampeg, Fender, Orange, and Mesa. All of those companies also make modern Class D amps for changing times.

However, three of those companies still make their big classic tube amps for their long-term customers who still desire that old-school tube tone: Ampeg has the SVT, Fender has the Super Bassman, and Orange has the AD-200B. The only one of the big 4 that abandoned the big classic tube bass amp (and its long-term old school tube amp customers) and went all-in on Class D was Mesa.

I venture it is possible to design updated new products for newer tastes while also not alienating a very large section of your immensely loyal customer base that has stood by you for 35 years.

This is correct; except that companies need to make tough decisions based on actual sales. I suspect that for Mesa, they must have simply decided that the actual sales of their big tubers didn’t justify the production / support costs. I mean, were the contrary true, they would be foolish to drop the products, right?

The tech is actually moving headlong further in other directions. Ampless stages, especially in bigger venues, are by far becoming the norm. Though you and I may have different tonal objectives, we may likely be in the same camp preferring backline signal chains. I am still STRUGGLING with the ampless transition; and WAY more than the tube power section vs Class D “debate.” But, that’s a whole different thread.

 

[sunbeast]

A good point.

However, the big 4 classic tube bass amp manufacturers were Ampeg, Fender, Orange, and Mesa. All of those companies also make modern Class D amps for changing times.

However, three of those companies still make their big classic tube amps for their long-term customers who still desire that old-school tube tone: Ampeg has the SVT, Fender has the Super Bassman, and Orange has the AD-200B. Mesa used to have the Bass 400+ and then the Strategy and Prodigy. The only one of the big 4 that abandoned the big classic tube bass amp (and its long-term old school tube amp customers) and went all-in on Class D was Mesa.

I venture it is possible to design updated new products for newer tastes while also not alienating and insulting a very large section of your immensely loyal customer base that has stood by you for 35 years.

All of those other three also manufacture their amps overseas to meet a price-point that draws in enough consumers for those tube-lines to support themselves. There is a limited SVT line still built in the US for those few ready to drop the big $$$, but I guarantee they sell a ton more of those Asian-built SVT-CL amps.
As discussed in this thread: Favorite Mesa Boogie Tube Bass Amps Designing a new head from the ground up when you don’t know the future of the market or the future availability of the tubes it relies on is a huge risk. How big is the market for a new Mesa tube head, which is going to cost upwards of $2000? Judging from that thread, the market is pretty limited (count how many times in that thread people essentially asked for a lighter-weight, hot-rodded SVT clone...). How many people in that thread “loved their 400/+ so much”, yet no longer own one nor will buy one again despite their ready availability on the used market (that says a lot about what the market actually supports). Post-corona I expect that market to be significantly smaller.

 

[HearNoStevil]

All of those other three also manufacture their amps overseas to meet a price-point that draws in enough consumers for those tube-lines to support themselves. There is a limited SVT line still built in the US for those few ready to drop the big $$$, but I guarantee they sell a ton more of those Asian-built SVT-CL amps.
As discussed in this thread: Favorite Mesa Boogie Tube Bass Amps Designing a new head from the ground up when you don’t know the future of the market or the future availability of the tubes it relies on is a huge risk. How big is the market for a new Mesa tube head, which is going to cost upwards of $2000? Judging from that thread, the market is pretty limited (count how many times in that thread people essentially asked for a lighter-weight, hot-rodded SVT clone...). How many people in that thread “loved their 400/+ so much”, yet no longer own one nor will buy one again despite their ready availability on the used market (that says a lot about what the market actually supports). Post-corona I expect that market to be significantly smaller.

All good points, and it is cool that the TT-800 was designed with feedback from Talkbass.

However, the bass world is much larger than just this forum, and to design your entire bass product line largely on feedback received from one microcosm of the internet potentially alienates a huge portion of your customers; the ones that started purchasing your products decades before the internet who don't rely on a thread on a website to decide for them what amp is the current "must-have." Because as has been seen before, whatever the current fad is on this website (Reddi, WD, Walkabout, SX basses; the list goes on and on) doesn't last past the next "big thing."

 

[sunbeast]

All good points, and it is cool that the TT-800 was designed with feedback from Talkbass.

However, the bass world is much larger than just this forum, and to design your entire bass product line largely on feedback received from one microcosm of the internet potentially alienates a huge portion of your customers; the ones that started purchasing your products decades before the internet who don't rely on a thread on a website to decide for them what amp is the current "must-have." Because as has been seen before, whatever the current fad is on this website (Reddi, WD, Walkabout, SX basses; the list goes on and on) doesn't last past the next "big thing."

By that same token, assuming that an engineer’s presence on this forum suggests that his company is only paying attention to Talkbass trends when deciding what to design next is a bit naive. Something tells me that a company that has survived in this market for this long probably has a better pulse on what is sustainable in a finicky market than a handful of picky snarky internet bassists. If the tube bass heads sold, they’d very likely still be making them. As it goes, there are still sufficient numbers of old 400/+ amps out there to keep most anyone who wants one happy for a lifetime! As much as I loved mine for several years, I’ve personally never given much thought to buying another as a gigging bassist.

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

HearNoStevil made some good points IMO. My ears don't quite hear the same mid-scoop voicing difference as he does between the two heads - inherently with everything at noon on the Boogie channel I do, but you can dial in a flat setting (see the back of the TT manual). His observation that the WD has a lot more user adjustability is spot on and like the SW channel on th TT it has a relatively flat EQ with all controls at noon/in their neutral positions. As for getting the JB tone (depending on which bass he was using and what years of his career you like most) I think the WD will likely the most helpful in allowing you to find something close.

As was also been mentioned by sunbeast none of the newer Mesa heads have been designed to be overdrive machines. The range of what players are looking for (just think about the number of pedals/effects out there) is simply too great for a single amp to meet every need. I think the Mesa design goal has been to be very pedal friendly and offer a touch of break-up when pushed that offers a little more interesting voicing, but is not really an "effect".

Now if you already have an effect/effects that get you the tone you like, the TT's SW channel set flat may give you a presentation more similar to his (at least compared with his Hartke set-up). However, you won't have as much mid frequency control to work with for boosting. Both heads offer a variable HPF for trimming back/tightening the lows to get more mid focus, but only the WD allows direct user access to control the power amp damping factor to get a tighter tracking type of sound.

As you know we all hear things differently, but those are my thoughts. I'd try the WD first, then the TT's SW channel and the TT's Boogie channel (you will need to use the flat setting in the specs section of the manual to avoid complete frustration). I strongly suspect that with any of these options an effects pedal or two (depending on your bass) will be necessary to get as close as possible to your tone goal.

I hope that's helpful Arthur.

That was very helpful, Al. I very much appreciate it. I need to make a trip to that shop and spend some time with the WD800 they had. As far as massive overdrive is concerned, I’m not looking at the WD800 to provide that.

Another head I’m considering is GK’s Legacy 1200. Hopefully the music store has one in stock so I can do a side by side comparison.

As always, thank you for your thoughts! Best regards!!!

 

[Al Kraft]

As much as I loved mine for several years, I’ve personally never given much thought to buying another as a gigging bassist.

...and I think that sums up your points very nicely. There is a huge difference between admiring something cool and being willing/able to buy it.

I used to make that point by asking people in a room to raise their hand if they believed that Rolls Royce automobiles represented a more luxurious driving experience and/or higher quality and workmanship than one would get in a typical production automobile. Most everyone usually raised their hands...big surprise, right? Then I would ask everyone whose hand was up to keep it up if they owned or had ever owned a Rolls Royce. As you might expect, all hands typically went down. When I asked why no one owned what they all arguably just indicated to me was a top tier car, they would say cost to buy and cost to own. They would then go on to say that they were quite happy with their current car choices except perhaps for those who owned used compact rental cars and new or used Yugos.

I suspect Mesa made a business decision to dedicate their production capabilities to making what people are voting for with their dollars. This obviously places some folks (possibly with cash in hand) in the position of needing to seek other sources of supply for what they desire. True, Mesa loses those customers, but they stay in business and make many people happy. Given the success of the SW product line, it would seem that their business strategy turned out to be a good move.

 

[pfschim]

All good points, and it is cool that the TT-800 was designed with feedback from Talkbass.

However, the bass world is much larger than just this forum, and to design your entire bass product line largely on feedback received from one microcosm of the internet potentially alienates a huge portion of your customers; the ones that started purchasing your products decades before the internet who don't rely on a thread on a website to decide for them what amp is the current "must-have." Because as has been seen before, whatever the current fad is on this website (Reddi, WD, Walkabout, SX basses; the list goes on and on) doesn't last past the next "big thing."

REDDI has been a very sought after DI for many years, not a fad that I can see. The Walkabout has been around for 15 years and while now out of production, it remains quite popular .... not a fad. Can't comment on SX basses or whether or not the WD800 will hang in there in popularity (disclaimer ... I own one myself). You seem to be fond of rather sweeping statements that don't hold water. You also seem to want to conflate YOUR interests/preferences with "huge portion" of Mesa customers. Its perfectly fine if someone prefers a specific form or era of bass gear ... have at it, use all the heavy old gear you like, but it gets a little silly when that's the primary reference point for your contributions to the forum.

 

[agedhorse]

I spent 40 years in the international touring industry working with some of the world's finest bassists. I don't rely only on an Internet forum to make decisions, but in reality TalkBass does represent the higher end of the average bassist better than the touring industry does.

Many factors go into developing new products. I look to many sources for inspiration but I never listen to a single voice or a tiny fraction of the market. I am also wary of strong vocal opinions much like the Rolls Royce example earlier.

I've been designing products commercially for over 30 years, I have never pretended that any of my products was a good choice for every player. If a product does not work for YOU, that's fine, but by the same token your favorite product may not be a good choice for another player.

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

I spent 40 years in the international touring industry working with some of the world's finest bassists. I don't rely only on an Internet forum to make decisions, but in reality TalkBass does represent the higher end of the average bassist better than the touring industry does.

Many factors go into developing new products. I look to many sources for inspiration but I never listen to a single voice or a tiny fraction of the market. I am also wary of strong vocal opinions much like the Rolls Royce example earlier.

I've been designing products commercially for over 30 years, I have never pretended that any of my products was a good choice for every player. If a product does not work for YOU, that's fine, but by the same token your favorite product may not be a good choice for another player.

Andy, just in case you forgot, I have an idea that if anyone can design a Class D amplifier that can cop an SVT’s tone, it’s you.


Of course, I know you’re working for Mesa, and it wouldn’t be kosher to rip-off Ampeg, but possibly you could design a two channel rig, one with the 400+ Fender Tone stack, - which ain’t my thing, and a second channel with a Baxandall EQ that can cop an SVT-type of tone.


My fingers are crossed.

 

[Wasnex]

I venture it is possible to design updated new products for newer tastes while also not alienating and insulting a very large section of your immensely loyal customer base that has stood by you for 35 years.

IMHO the decision to get out of the tube bass amp market was not a personal attack on you, and Mesa has not abandoned their customers. There are plenty of Mesa tube amps out there for anyone who wants them, and unlike most other companies, Mesa still provides factory support for pretty much all of them AFAIK.

I do think Mesa made some bad business decisions, and now they are having to make new choices in order to survive. It's a dog eat dog world my friend, especially after you have had a few setbacks.

I thought the Strategy and Prodigy were going to be market-leading designs, but unfortunately they had to be discontinued after a fairly short production run due to reliability issues. The impression I get is they were designed to be aggressive to suit player's taste, and their aggressive setup resulted in reliability issues in the tube output sections.

I have no doubt the company lost a bunch of money in the process because it costs a fortune to develop and certify an amplifier design, and warranty repairs are not cheap. Plus Mesa goes to the trouble of bench stocking spare parts so the designs can be supported for decades, so I would not be surprised if they have spare parts on the shelf for amps that will never even get built.

I think it's unreasonable to expect Mesa to jump right back into the all tube market at this point. The risk is simply too high and the potential rewards too low. Tube amps are more expensive to make, they are more expensive to support, and they sell in lower numbers so it's hard to leverage economy of scale to make them profitable. There is a good chance they would have to be sold at a loss. Companies do sell some of their marquis products at a loss from time to time to generate broader interest in their product line, but I suspect this would not be an effective strategy for Mesa right now.

If you don't know, @agedhorse already ran a long crowd sourcing thread to gather ideas on a new all-tube amp. But if the economic/accounting data doesn't support such a design being profitable, it would probably be stupid for Mesa to re-enter to market with an all tube design.

 

[Wicked G]

Funny how a thread asking for differences between the WD800 and TT800 can go in such a different direction.

 

[Jim C]

...and I think that sums up your points very nicely. There is a huge difference between admiring something cool and being willing/able to buy it.

I used to make that point by asking people in a room to raise their hand if they believed that Rolls Royce automobiles represented a more luxurious driving experience and/or higher quality and workmanship than one would get in a typical production automobile. Most everyone usually raised their hands...big surprise, right? Then I would ask everyone whose hand was up to keep it up if they owned or had ever owned a Rolls Royce. As you might expect, all hands typically went down. When I asked why no one owned what they all arguably just indicated to me was a top tier car, they would say cost to buy and cost to own. They would then go on to say that they were quite happy with their current car choices except perhaps for those who owned used compact rental cars and new or used Yugos.

I suspect Mesa made a business decision to dedicate their production capabilities to making what people are voting for with their dollars. This obviously places some folks (possibly with cash in hand) in the position of needing to seek other sources of supply for what they desire. True, Mesa loses those customers, but they stay in business and make many people happy. Given the success of the SW product line, it would seem that their business strategy turned out to be a good move.

Excellent analogy Al.
I think an equally interesting detail (and correct me if I'm wrong), is that the majority of people who had strong opinions on the ride quality of a Rolls Royce probably never actually been for a ride in one.
It would make one wonder, how many opinions about equipment are based on a players true experience, or is it more opinions based on one's perception of what the amp might sound like. Big difference.
And I have had a ride in a restored Rolls limo. Very quiet, very smooth, and something I would never want to own!

 

[agedhorse]

Excellent analogy Al.
I think an equally interesting detail (and correct me if I'm wrong), is that the majority of people who had strong opinions on the ride quality of a Rolls Royce probably never actually been for a ride in one.
It would make one wonder, how many opinions about equipment are based on a players true experience, or is it more opinions based on one's perception of what the amp might sound like. Big difference.
And I have had a ride in a restored Rolls limo. Very quiet, very smooth, and something I would never want to own!

IME, this is very, very true.

 

[agedhorse]

IMHO the decision to get out of the tube bass amp market was not a personal attack on you, and Mesa has not abandoned their customers. There are plenty of Mesa tube amps out there for anyone who wants them, and unlike most other companies, Mesa still provides factory support for pretty much all of them AFAIK.

I do think Mesa made some bad business decisions, and now they are having to make new choices in order to survive. It's a dog eat dog world my friend, especially after you have had a few setbacks.

I thought the Strategy and Prodigy were going to be market-leading designs, but unfortunately they had to be discontinued after a fairly short production run due to reliability issues. The impression I get is they were designed to be aggressive to suit player's taste, and their aggressive setup resulted in reliability issues in the tube output sections.

I have no doubt the company lost a bunch of money in the process because it costs a fortune to develop and certify an amplifier design, and warranty repairs are not cheap. Plus Mesa goes to the trouble of bench stocking spare parts so the designs can be supported for decades, so I would not be surprised if they have spare parts on the shelf for amps that will never even get built.

I think it's unreasonable to expect Mesa to jump right back into the all tube market at this point. The risk is simply too high and the potential rewards too low. Tube amps are more expensive to make, they are more expensive to support, and they sell in lower numbers so it's hard to leverage economy of scale to make them profitable. There is a good chance they would have to be sold at a loss. Companies do sell some of their marquis products at a loss from time to time to generate broader interest in their product line, but I suspect this would not be an effective strategy for Mesa right now.

If you don't know, @agedhorse already ran a long crowd sourcing thread to gather ideas on a new all-tube amp. But if the economic/accounting data doesn't support such a design being profitable, it would probably be stupid for Mesa to re-enter to market with an all tube design.

Yes, this was discussed in depth and IIRC the cost of a Bass 400+ today, built in the US with US transformers and sheet metal with all of the international safety and EMC approvals would end up being between $3500 and $4000. This was perceived as a serious stumbling block with almost everybody, especially when you can buy a used amp fully restored for about 1/2 that amount.

Of course, if we were to manufacture them in China or Vietnam, using Chinese transformers and sheet metal, the cost would be quite a bit lower BUT that is not how the company rolls. It's an American company that chooses to use American suppliers wherever possible. This means that some products are simply not feasible to include in the mix.

 

[Al Kraft]

think an equally interesting detail (and correct me if I'm wrong), is that the majority of people who had strong opinions on the ride quality of a Rolls Royce probably never actually been for a ride in one.
It would make one wonder, how many opinions about equipment are based on a players true experience, or is it more opinions based on one's perception of what the amp might sound like. Big difference.

Maybe it's just the people I run across, but I think it's more herd mentality and tribal knowledge when it comes to paradigms like this than firsthand experience to underpin their answer. While in many respects there's nothing wrong with that, it can be a costly mistake to base business decisions on such responses unless your price point is so attractive that people can actually own a Rolls-Royce Phantom for less than a Ford Fusion.

 

[57pbass]

I recently acquired the TT800 and have owned the WD800 since they hit the streets. I run these heads through a Subway 212 or a few different Bag End cabs that I own.
I primarily play a P Bass or an active 4 string Jazz Bass. I usually dial in my sound and won’t touch the amps settings after that.

I have played a bunch of shows with the WD800 and have always been able to quickly dial in my desired sound. It’s the Warm/Fat setting that appears in the manual. I also play with the damping but find that the “Low” damping setting is my favorite. That gets me closest to the Classic Walkabout sound with the additional horsepower...

I received the TT800 and was very fortunate to have a few shows booked Drive In style this season that allowed me to run the TT with my cabs. I was able to test both Channels and mess with the different controls. I found that I had to tweak the controls a bit more than I did with the WD to get desired sound.

The true test for me was through my headphones.
I sat with each head for extended periods of time with a few different Basses.
It allowed me to immerse myself into each heads features and really hear the end results of the adjustments I made. You can hear the slightest tweak.
I listened through a pair of GRADO LABS SR80 headphones that are tuned Flat.

The winner for me was the WD800... I just prefer the simplicity of this head and prefer it’s sound over the TT800. It sounds very close to the Classic Walkabout head which is one of my favorites. I knew after the live shows that I favored the WD800 but wanted to be certain.

I realize these are very different heads and one is not better than the other. They’re just different. It was a great experiment for me and now I know. I have sold the TT800.

In my bass related dreams..I await the arrival of a WD1200...

 

[lomo]

And I have had a ride in a restored Rolls limo. Very quiet, very smooth, and something I would never want to own!

When I was a young kid in the early 70s, my very affluent aunt bought a Rolls....my father was not a "car guy" at all....but after he drove it, I remember him saying he was in awe of the fact that at 90 mph all he could hear was the ticking of the (obviously analog) clock. Today, when I look at a Rolls Royce I see several things......a marvel of luxury engineering, mechanical art, and a machine built and purchased with complete and wanton disregard for the fact that such excessive, conspicuous consumption effectively constitutes pissing on the next generations' shoes. Different strokes, for sure

 

[lomo]

The winner for me was the WD800... I just prefer the simplicity of this head and prefer it’s sound over the TT800. It sounds very close to the Classic Walkabout head which is one of my favorites. I knew after the live shows that I favored the WD800 but wanted to be certain.

I have not yet played a TT800 or heard one in person, but the WD800 sounds/feels to me like an improved Walkabout. I get the sound in my head, with a front end that's powerful and flexible but intuitive, with gobs of power and the added HPF and other bells 'n' whistles, after a 5 lb weight loss. In my case, the exact same sounds I love from a Walkabout can be effortlessly squeezed out of the WD800, with the headroom and "occasionally too wide at the bottom" problems solved.

 

[Al Kraft]

I have not yet played a TT800 or heard one in person, but the WD800 sounds/feels to me like an improved Walkabout. I get the sound in my head, with a front end that's powerful and flexible but intuitive, with gobs of power and the added HPF and other bells 'n' whistles, after a 5 lb weight loss. In my case, the exact same sounds I love from a Walkabout can be effortlessly squeezed out of the WD800, with the headroom and "occasionally too wide at the bottom" problems solved.

A very accurate synopsis based on my own experience with the WD and WA. While some folks actually enjoyed and utilized those messier WA artifacts in their playing style and will miss what "got fixed", I find the WD to be an improvement all the way around.

 

[57pbass]

I have not yet played a TT800 or heard one in person, but the WD800 sounds/feels to me like an improved Walkabout. I get the sound in my head, with a front end that's powerful and flexible but intuitive, with gobs of power and the added HPF and other bells 'n' whistles, after a 5 lb weight loss. In my case, the exact same sounds I love from a Walkabout can be effortlessly squeezed out of the WD800, with the headroom and "occasionally too wide at the bottom" problems solved.

After all of my years playing bass and to my surprise now that I’m thinking about it, I have never ever plugged into a MESA 400 Classic Tube Head.. which is why I couldn’t comment on a comparison between the TT and the original.