Mic vs DI vs "Blend of Both"

[Joblivion]

Hey Y'all,

I have been experimenting with recording over the past 2 years. I am still not sure when I would use just a mic vs just a DI. If there is a blend of both, is high passing one and low passing the other the only way to go or are there other ways to blend DI and mic signals?

Also, how would you blend multiple mics and a DI signal or two mics together?

Finally, why do people hate the beta 52 mic on bass cabs? I saw some things about mid scoop but if you place it at the recommended distance of 2 inches, you have normal level of mids...

 

[silky smoove]

Finally, why do people hate the beta 52 mic on bass cabs? I saw some things about mid scoop but if you place it at the recommended distance of 2 inches, you have normal level of mids...

I wouldn’t call this frequency response a “normal level of mids” when placed at 2”. That’s about 10db difference when comparing 50hz and 300hz. It’s around 17db when comparing 300hz and 4khz. Pretty ideal bass drum response but just about the opposite of what’s needed in most bass guitar situations.

 

[Joblivion]

I wouldn’t call this frequency response a “normal level of mids” when placed at 2”. That’s about 10db difference when comparing 50hz and 300hz. It’s around 17db when comparing 300hz and 4khz. Pretty ideal bass drum response but just about the opposite of what’s needed in most bass guitar situations.

View attachment 4742743

Sorry my bad! My graph's 0 line is different so it kind of threw me off a little. I think it is 12db difference not 17 between 300 and 40kHz but that is a lot.

 

[silky smoove]

I think it is 12db difference not 17 between 300 and 40kHz but that is a lot.

You're off by about 5db. At 2" you can see that 300hz is just a hair above -10db, so we can call that -9 for easy math. It then extends to a little less than halfway between +5 and +10db. Let's call that +7 for easy math. -9 to +7 is 16db, but I'd put the low end closer to -9.5 and the high end closer to +7.5, but that's splitting hairs. 16-17db is no joke in terms of a scoop. The bigger factor will be the difference between the low end. 50hz to 300hz is 10db, or the equivalent of 300hz being half as loud as 50hz. The fact that there isn't a ton of usable low frequency energy for a bass guitar in a mix at 50hz in most cases the issue becomes compounded. The mic effectively accentuates a bottom end that's too low for most mixes and then cuts where the bass is most useful in most mixes. The top end will likely be pretty nice with the rising response from around 1khz up to 4khz provided you want a modern tone in the mix, but I wouldn't call that a benefit given the problems in the low end and midrange with this mic. You could attempt to compensate for it by blending in a DI track but then you're introducing a more complex phase relationship compared to a single source, which may cause more problems than it solves.

 

[Joblivion]

You're off by about 5db. At 2" you can see that 300hz is just a hair above -10db, so we can call that -9 for easy math.

At 2' its a hair above -10 to what I am seeing. At 2" it's a hair above what appears to be -5db. Nonetheless it is still a -5 db drop of the mids. At the end of the day I see your point the low end is way higher than the mids.

 

[silky smoove]

At 2' its a hair above -10 to what I am seeing. At 2" it's a hair above what appears to be -5db. Nonetheless it is still a -5 db drop of the mids.

You're right, I was looking at 2', not 2". You save a little on the bottom end dip at 2' due to reduced proximity effect, but you also gain a lot more room interference, which may or may not be pleasant sounding depending on the room and what else is happening within it. It's pretty rare that mic'ing a bass cab at 2' is the way to go, even in heavily treated studios like mine. In a typical bedroom situation it would be even more rare that the results would be pleasant.

 

[Joblivion]

You're right, I was looking at 2', not 2". You save a little on the bottom end dip at 2' due to reduced proximity effect, but you also gain a lot more room interference, which may or may not be pleasant sounding depending on the room and what else is happening within it. It's pretty rare that mic'ing a bass cab at 2' is the way to go, even in heavily treated studios like mine. In a typical bedroom situation it would be even more rare that the results would be pleasant.

Unfortunately I am a drummer first. How can I blend in a JDI to help compensate for the mid loss? Should I just low pass at a higher frequency?

 

[silky smoove]

Unfortunately I am a drummer first. How can I blend in a JDI to help compensate for the mid loss? Should I just low pass at a higher frequency?

My first step when blending a mic and a DI is to just bring both of them up in the mix full range and see if they play nicely together. If you start low passing one and high passing the other you can end up with something similar to what happens in a multiway cabinet with a crossover that results in reduced frequency response in the area of the crossover slope overlaps. If running both of them full range works you'll likely be better off. Sometimes you do just want the DI or the mic to fill in a specific slot. If I were doing this and wanted the DI to fill in what's missing I'd likely stick a moderately steep (greater than 12db/oct) low pass filter on the DI and bring it down to the 1-4khz range. That would get rid of the DI's top end and just use its bottom end and midrange to fill out what the Beta 52A is missing in the midrange. I'd likely then put a high pass filter on the buss that combines the two bass signals to get the combined bottom end out of the way of the kick drum's body. Further, I would use something like Sound Radix Auto Align to help simplify the phase relationship of the two signals and hopefully reduce some of the comb filtering, particularly in the bottom end, unless of course that comb filtering results in a pleasant sound, in which I'd just leave it.

 

[MVE]

With the vast array of options for manipulating the sound via plugins today, what are you aiming to accomplish by mic’ing?

If you’re getting a really good overdrive out of a tube amp, that you just can’t dial in any other way, then yeah, mic is the way to go. But otherwise, you’re probably better off with the di.

 

[Wasnex]

AFAIK, in studio the mic is typically delayed for the best phase response with the mic.

Using HPF and LPF introduce phase distortion at the attenuation kicks in. Here is a related post I wrote yesterday: HPF Phase switch

 

[Tim Skaggs]

I can’t see you would need to mic a cab unless you have a very unique sounding cabinet or a very unique sounding amp that gets its sound driving a certain cabinet. Even those types of tones can be fairly closely achieved with effects. Now, using a mic in a live setting might be handy if the player is using a channel switching amp for primary tone(s).

 

[Deleted member 271037]

The scooped tone of the Beta 52 is intended for kick drums, and really just for ONE type of kick drum tone. It's insanely colored. It's great for getting a usable tone FAST on live gigs but in the studio I personally don't like it much even for kick drums unless I'm aiming specifically for THAT tone.

The Beta 52 can work great with bass guitar for SOME genres of music but generally I find it rather useless. You will not get "normal" mids no matter where you place this mic. Stuffing it into the speaker for maximum proximity effect will only give you boomy mud. A mic with a more natural frequency response will be far more versatile and give you a better recorded tone 99% of the time. If you WANT that amount of mid scoop it's much better to fine tune it manually by eq than to rely on a pre-set mid scoop intended for kick drums.

When blending mic+DI there are lots of different strategies and the best way to do it may also depend on the song/genre. You will run into phase issues/comb filtering of course. I use a Radial Phazer on the DI signal to minimize this problem.

Here's the strategy I use the most often:

I prefer to let the DI take care of the lows and blend in mids/highs from the mic (HPF on the mic signal, although where exactly I high pass it can vary a lot). This way the lows will be unaffected by the mic signal and I can adjust the Radial Phazer for the most focused tone in the mids/highs. The Radial Phazer will never give you a perfect result in the entire frequency range, which is why I prefer to leave the lows to the DI only. If I had adjusted the Phazer for the most focused tone in the lows there would be severe phase issues/comb filtering in the higher frequencies.

A similar product to the Radial Phazer is the Little Labs IBP. This one even has a switch for focusing on either low or high frequencies. However, with bass guitar I've still always gotten better results with the Radial Phazer for some reason. I love the IBP for multi miking guitars though.

I like to use hardware boxes like the Phazer/IBP and get things right before recording. With this approach, be aware that any sound leakage can compromise your phase adjustment settings. You'll need to hear the DI+mic blended without any sound from the amp leaking through the walls. If this isn't possible you will probably be better of with a phase adjustment plugin and do the fine tuning at the mixing stage, "in the box".

But then again, sometimes I use DI only or mic only. It depends on the song/genre.

My favourite mic for bass cabs is the Beyerdynamic M88TG but I also like Sennheiser MD421 and E/V RE20, depending on what kind of tone I'm looking for. But heavily scooped kick drum mics are best left for kick drums IMO, and only if you want that particular kind of kick drum sound.

 

[BlueTalon]

Hey Y'all,

I have been experimenting with recording over the past 2 years. I am still not sure when I would use just a mic vs just a DI.

Short answer: Always use a DI. A good DI gives you a signal you can always use no matter how screwed up your mic signal might get. You might ultimately decide to use the mic signal rather than the DI, but the DI is insurance. If you get that recorded, you can do what you want with it after the fact, or even choose to not use it, but at least you'll have it.

 

[cnltb]

I wouldn’t call this frequency response a “normal level of mids” when placed at 2”. That’s about 10db difference when comparing 50hz and 300hz. It’s around 17db when comparing 300hz and 4khz. Pretty ideal bass drum response but just about the opposite of what’s needed in most bass guitar situations.

View attachment 4742743

0.06m is 6cm ( just a bit more than 2 inches.)
2 ft. would be 0.6m aprx.


...if I'm not mistaken...

 

[Joblivion]

0.06m is 6cm( just a bit more than 2 inches.
2 ft. would be 0.6m aprx.


...if I'm not mistaken...

Very true!

 

[Clemouze]

And what about amp sim ?

I worked with that for 4 years now, using my own IR I created from 2 SM57 on Gallien Krueger Neo 410 cab ( Tweeter and Speaker). I use a humble MOOER RADAR

I always send that to sound guys, they seem really happy. I also use high and low filters. Don't have lot of subs , but good presence around 100 Hz. The + 5000 Hz are here but controlled and not harsh.

No amp on stage, not mic, and MY tone is sent to soundguy already treated as I like it.
OK last time I had to ask for more treble because he thought they were not wanted and took them off. NON MONSIEUR


As a band we also rehearse all in one mix console, then through a headphone rack. We all have the same mix in ears ! It helps to craft the band tone, that's why we know our sound is already good for soundguys, and they just have to correct resonnances etc, and not to change the character of instruments

 

[Nashrakh]

Short answer: Always use a DI. A good DI gives you a signal you can always use no matter how screwed up your mic signal might get. You might ultimately decide to use the mic signal rather than the DI, but the DI is insurance. If you get that recorded, you can do what you want with it after the fact, or even choose to not use it, but at least you'll have it.

+1, and you could even re-amp your signal if you so choose, which opens up a LOT more options without having to re-record track after track after track for minor adjustments (or big ones, like swapping cabs on the fly).

 

[wellshuxley]

Do you have any other mics? If you’re looking to augment or complement the DI signal, I wouldn’t choose a dramatically mid-scooped mic. I’d even reach for a 57 before a Beta 52 on a bass cab, personally.

 

[Joblivion]

Do you have any other mics? If you’re looking to augment or complement the DI signal, I wouldn’t choose a dramatically mid-scooped mic. I’d even reach for a 57 before a Beta 52 on a bass cab, personally.

I have a 57 and an Apex 435b

 

[Jefus]

Always run a DI. That's your saving grace, regardless of what else happens.

These days I generally plug my bass straight into a DI with the XLR going straight to my interface. The parallel out then goes to my pedalboard and my amp head, then the DI out from my amp goes to my interface. This way I always have that clean, DI signal I can use later if I don't like something about the effects I've chosen on my pedalboard, or a delay is out of tempo, etc.

For mic'ing, I don't like the 52 either. The 57, for all of its weirdness, just kind of puts everything into an audible range that works. If I'm looking for a less aggressive sound I'll use an SM7B which sounds similar to the 57, but smoother. I saw someone mention the MD421. I like this mic but it's rare I use it as a standalone for bass. It can compliment a 57 pretty well as they have different characters and blending the two on a guitar amp can be great. But the tone and vibe you're striving for will dictate which mics will work. There are a lot of great videos on YouTube where they mic the same source with several different mics to give a good comparison.

But ALWAYS run a DI. Everything else can be used for coloring.