Double Bass Mic'ing an upright ... pickup not in yet ...

[Keyser Soze]

I my experience, a mic on the bass can add to the overall bass sound in a live band mix (when blended with pickup and/or mic'd speaker) but usually won't be able to provide enough level before feedback and crosstalk issues arise when used as the primary sound source.

TLDR: more trouble than it's worth, IME.

 

[Phlipper]

Didn't take it. Gonna just wait till pup is installed.

 

[LaFaro01]

If you are placing the mic on a stand, rather than mounting it to the bass, something like this may help block some of the highs and mids:

I am not necessarily telling you to buy a gobo or mic shield. I am primarily training to explain the problem, which tends to be rather severe. IMHO, Use positioning and whatever resources you have, and then accept the limitations until you can get a pickup.

You could ask John Goldsby about the advantages and problems using such a shield...

 

[Keyser Soze]

You could ask John Goldsby about the advantages and problems using such a shield...

At 1:00 you get a good look at a Glockenklang amp/cab behind Goldsby. I don't think that mic is doing all the work.

Also, Goldsby is playing with plenty of elbow room between himself and just two acoustic instruments on a big, open stage, the drummer seems to have a pretty light touch. This is a great opportunity to get some mic sound on the bass. I'll bet that mic shield helps.

 

[wjl]

Well John Goldsby and Hans Dekkers are both members of the WDR big band, one of the best we have - and what I saw from their videos, they use the best equipment, that looks a bit like a hypercardioid mike (a Schoeps maybe?), which makes a lot of sense with that SE shield in its back if you think about it. Also, what's on his bass very much looks like a Fishman Full Circle pickup, and I'm sure that he also goes directly into the mixing console with that (via DI or preamp of course), which would help preventing feedback in live situations. Just pulled his "Jazz Bass Book" out of my shelf, but sadly he doesn't mention his gear there, maybe you could ask him via his website - he's a very friendly teacher and person.

 

[damonsmith]

In terms of the general discussion that is not really very related to the OP's question: I find live situations that a mic works for me it also works to just play acoustic. A mic from a really good sound system always seems to be fine.
For recording, a good directional mic always captures my sound fine, whether live or in the studio.

For OP: I'd try to do a practice with no amp, it will help keep it simple and get the other musicians to deal with the actual dynamics better.

 

[Don Hergert]

Didn't take it. Gonna just wait till pup is installed.

Lots of good info here... I'd agree about trying it out both with and without a mic at a practice, but as you know, adding audience to a venue changes a lot of things related to sound.

Just to serve as some other possible ideas (and to further define the rabbit hole), I've got both a Vic's pickup (Model C) installed (with an onboard pre-amp) and a separate mounted dynamic mic (Sennheiser e604) to provide a clear mic'ed feed...

I use the Vic's/pre-amp system when I'm playing with (or competing with, as the case may be) other amplified instruments or in an otherwise loud instrument situation (for example, keys, drums, horns, banjos, etc.), because a piezo based system tends to control feedback better than a mic. Worth mentioning though, arco through a piezo tends to be dramatically louder than pizz through a piezo, enough so that transitions between pizz and arco can be difficult while using a piezo pickup.

I use the mounted mic in volume-sensitive situations where I'm more concerned about the audience hearing tone and touch, or additionally where I might throw in a little arco. I'm primarily a pizz/slap player, but I'll add occasional arco for effect, and the mounted mic handles that well.

I can use either or both systems at the same time, although I usually only use the piezo or the mic. I can also use either or both to either my amps or to an FOH system, although again I usually only use the piezo system or the mic.

In my acoustic Gospel band, if we're playing with everyone else mic'ed, I always prefer to use my mounted mic. In the bluegrass/jazz/pop fusion band that I played with before Covid19, which featured loud and mic'ed acoustic instruments, I used the piezo system.

Some highly respected folks here really like the mixed sound of a piezo and a mic. To me it's just an added complication, although I might occasionally use my piezo with a personal monitor amp on stage, while at the same time sending the clear mic feed to an FOH.

Lots of options... Different DBs may work differently, and different touch and technique may also work differently. There is no single standard. To some extent making selections is a matter of ratings, recommendations, personal preference, price, and trial-and-error.

 

[Keyser Soze]

"Upon further review" of the Goldby video, each guy has a floor monitor speaker. The (amplified) output from the floor monitors makes the use of a bass mic more problematic, hence the mic shield's usefulness.

I'm sure the sound crew on this gig are five star, top notch, world class pros who are able to maximize the top of the line tools in their arsenal to tremendous advantage, to the great benefit of both the audience and the musicians on stage.

 

[Ryan in PDX]

Thanks for the info. You don't happen to have a pic of the 57 mounted up, by chance?

Turns out I do have a photo ... 2016 seems like a century ago!

It's an SM58 without the windscreen, with hair ties at the top end and grocery/produce bands at the bottom.

 

[Ric Vice]

Well John Goldsby and Hans Dekkers are both members of the WDR big band, one of the best we have - and what I saw from their videos, they use the best equipment, that looks a bit like a hypercardioid mike (a Schoeps maybe?), which makes a lot of sense with that SE shield in its back if you think about it. Also, what's on his bass very much looks like a Fishman Full Circle pickup, and I'm sure that he also goes directly into the mixing console with that (via DI or preamp of course), which would help preventing feedback in live situations. Just pulled his "Jazz Bass Book" out of my shelf, but sadly he doesn't mention his gear there, maybe you could ask him via his website - he's a very friendly teacher and person.

Sure is, as I recall it's a Schoeps CMC6 MK41. John recently got the new CMC1 body and uses it with which ever capsule he uses. The MK41 is a "Super Cardioid" which as I understand is different than the Hyper Cardioid. Last I heard

he's using a Acoustic Box II for his preamp. That's a serious investment for a seriously talented bassist.

 

[crd]

The OP doesn't mention what type of music he is playing but I can't imagine needing a mic or a pick-up for a rehearsal.

 

[Don Hergert]

Maybe not forever...

But I'd say if you're going to perform with electronics, you should use them in rehearsals at least until you are comfortable handling them throughout the whole gig. Nothing like a new gadget to do something unexpected and mess up your mind during a performance.

 

[crd]

Maybe not forever...

But I'd say if you're going to perform with electronics, you should use them in rehearsals at least until you are comfortable handling them throughout the whole gig. Nothing like a new gadget to do something unexpected and mess up your mind during a performance.

Yeah, it's good to know your tools.
But if you are playing acoustic music with acoustic instruments, I think it's really important to work on the acoustic sound you trying to amplify. It's hard to make an amp/mic/whatever sound like you want it to, if don't really know what you actually sound like.

Also if you're acoustic sound isn't loud enough to compete with the group you are playing with at rehearsal, you can forget about trying to use a mic on the gig...

 

[Ric Vice]

But if you are playing acoustic music with acoustic instruments, I think it's really important to work on the acoustic sound you trying to amplify. It's hard to make a amp/mic/whatever sound like you want it to, if you don't really know what you actually sound like.

Very true, that said


Also if you're acoustic sound isn't loud enough to compete with the group you are playing with at rehearsal, you can forget about trying to use a mic on the gig...

Bassists have been using microphones to boost their volume for a long time. I distinctly remember
Cleveland Eaton using w microphone
with the Count Basie band when I heard them play live at a concert. He also used one with Ramsey Lewis. I’m pretty confident that Mr. Eaton didn’t
really concentrate on how he sounded through the house sound system. Most likely he didn’t have a microphone when he rehearsed with the band. So his bass and hands made a big enough sound for the band to feel the pulse of the rhythm section at rehearsals. I’m not entirely sure that the Basie band clearly heard
the tone quality and pitch of all the notes. So in some cases the bassist is as “loud as it’s humanly possible”’within the constraints of a particular group. I played in big bands sans amp and sometimes it was more like playing a tuned percussion instrument, when the band was hitting really hard. Under those conditions all my time in the practice room certainly helped me project but without a pickup or mic wouldn’t equal the volume and intensity of the band. Just my take.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

When I play with a Latin music group (Cuban and Salsa) I use my Clevinger EUB with Spiros (together with the piezo pickup better suited to Jazz than Latin) and shorten the notes, specially if I feel the tempo isn‘t kept constant or the rhythm group doesn’t play well together. Then it is a tuned percussion instrument too.
But because they don’t really know how to play soft, I need a substantial amount of amplification and pluck rather hard.

 

[unbrokenchain]

Before I got a Nadine, I used a CAD CM217 mic mounted between the afterlengths. It's a very cheap mic designed as an overhead for drummers, but it's tiny/light and has a HPF. Used for FOH sound only, hard to get much volume before feedback if it's sent to monitors or an amp. I typically use the pickup/amp to hear myself on stage and let the soundperson blend the mic sound in. Nice to have both!

 

[Ric Vice]

Before I got a Nadine, I used a CAD CM217 mic mounted between the afterlengths. It's a very cheap mic designed as an overhead for drummers, but it's tiny/light and has a HPF. Used for FOH sound only, hard to get much volume before feedback if it's sent to monitors or an amp. I typically use the pickup/amp to hear myself on stage and let the soundperson blend the mic sound in. Nice to have both!

Good words,
If you're doing sound checks right before the performance with different acts on the bill than this is they way that I do the mic pickup thing. Sound tech's have lots of generally great experience with microphones and somewhat less

experience getting a great sound out of a piezo pickup, because the "strategy" for pickups has been to run them into a DI and right into the board. So if they are astute at using piezo's (which many are) then they pull out a Countryman 85 and

things can sound decent. The Country Man 85 is only one example of a whole host of other DI's that sound great, but it's wise to "know your DI's" so you have a idea of what their going to sound like. But if I'm using and amplifier on stage then

I'll send the mic to the board and deal with the pickup sending it back to the amp only.

 

[Bruce Calin]

There was a time in I guess the '70's when big bands were trying to copy Buddy Rich or Maynard Ferguson, playing "rockish" sorts of charts as part of the repertoire and playing REALLY LOUD. I gave up on trying to compete with the big bass and went to entirely electric slab. If there were complaints from bandmates about "authenticity" I would say, "don't play so #*%@ loud". There came a point were nothing I could do with mike or pickup wouldn't eventually fail. I don't miss those days.

 

[Ric Vice]

There was a time in I guess the '70's when big bands were trying to copy Buddy Rich or Maynard Ferguson, playing "rockish" sorts of charts as part of the repertoire and playing REALLY LOUD. I gave up on trying to compete with the big bass and went to entirely electric slab. If there were complaints from bandmates about "authenticity" I would say, "don't play so #*%@ loud". There came a point were nothing I could do with mike or pickup wouldn't eventually fail. I don't miss those days.

Great point, I haven't done any true 16 piece Big Band jobs for quite some time and frankly, I can't say that I miss them. Even with a smaller 12 piece "jazz ensemble" it's very challenging to play a DB and I have some pretty nifty gear to handle it.

For those occasions I have a Kolstine Busetto Travel Bass, because it's not as prone to feed back and even at that the EQ has to be just right, not to hot, not to cold.

 

[Wasnex]

Great point, I haven't done any true 16 piece Big Band jobs for quite some time and frankly, I can't say that I miss them. Even with a smaller 12 piece "jazz ensemble" it's very challenging to play a DB and I have some pretty nifty gear to handle it.

For those occasions I have a Kolstine Busetto Travel Bass, because it's not as prone to feed back and even at that the EQ has to be just right, not to hot, not to cold.

It's been awhile for me as well. But, I have played many concerts with (LOUD) professional, full-sized big bands. With a pickup, it is not a problem as long as you have appropriate, quality gear and know how to use it. The sound of the upright becomes less authentic as your volume requirements increases, but it can still sound very good. Compensating/corrective EQ can help considerably. The louder you play the more EQ is required.

For added context: My amp generally serves as my personal monitor and we had full PA support. This means there were multiple channels of monitors spread across the stage. If other musicians needed more bass, they asked for it in their monitor.

I generally ran my speaker stacked on top of a rolling rack, so the bottom of the cab was elevated to about waist high. Often I tilted the cab back so it was aimed at my head. This approach allowed me to hear better and also directed less energy into the body of the bass. It does not create a huge, thumpy, pillowy low end, so some players won't like it.

One of my peers tried the AMT S25B (mic) mounted to his bass. It sounded great through the PA when he played by himself. The amount of gain before feedback when he sent the mic through his amp was very low (IMHO unusable in a big band). When the drummer started playing, the hash from the cymbals was way louder in the mic than the bass.

For a few months he tried mixing the AMT and a pickup through a D-Tar Solstice blender. I always felt the best sound was 100% pickup, and adding anything from the mic through the amp degraded the sound. The sound the mic picked up from the cymbals was reflected off the curved surface of the bass. This caused the cymbals to sound flanged, harsh, unnatural .

I did not hear the bass through FOH. The audio tech said it sounded fine, but given how loud and nasty the cymbals where in the amp, I had a hard time believing it.

From the comparisons I have seen, the DPA 4099B sounds slightly better than the AMT, and may have slightly better gain before feedback and bleed rejection. Not enough to make much of difference IMHO.