Micro Bass Heads, why doesn't everyone use them?

[L.A. BASS]

Also, to be fair, gigging is a tough business now, and there are a lot of guys still gigging those SVT3Pros and Eden WT800's that sound absolutely fine, and that have no cash to even make it worth 'keeping up with things'. So, +1 to your point that TBers represent a the population of what are called 'early adopters' in the new product marketing/R&D literature. Kind of the 'edge of the sword' as to predicting where the market is going in the future IMO.

I said..L.A. BASS... I still can't figure out this quote thing...

I have to say that as a weekend warrior who for over 30 years of playing 7-8 gigs a week and now play 3-4 gigs a month. I must really always make tough decisions about the cost vs. payout... I love to keep up with the Jones's. But it becomes a hard sell to me and my wife when I think about dropping $2500.00 on a new bass rig to go make $100.00 a night when I have a perfectly fine bass rig that in all other parts of the universe minus TB would never even be recognized by any other players. I can't remember the last time a guitar player or a drummer scams over to have a look at my gear! People always comment on my playing and singing, but almost never on the rig itself. I guess it's just not that exciting to anyone else.

So to stay on topic, I did buy a new rig last year, I moved from a Eden WT800 amp weighing in at 26lbs and an Eden 410 Bass Cab weighing in at 93lbs. To my new Mesa Boogie M9 Carbine weighing in at 28lbs and the Mesa Boogie Power House 410 Bass Cab weighing in at 96lbs. I really wanted to go lighter, but I never found a NEO speaker cab that sounded as good to my ears and the M9 just pummeled everything else I tried. I live in L.A. And I have tried everything! I had to go with the extra weight even though I thought I would be lightening the load. For me, sound won out over convenience.

 

[KJung]

There are a lot of guys out there playing 10, 20, 30, 40 year old amps. It doesn't surprise me that you don't see a ton of them on stage yet. Big heavy amps are plentiful and cheap. Most guys don't amp hop like those here do.

I used a LMII as my main amp for maybe 4 years or so, and I think it performed well, but I ended up running into its limitations once I switched cabs. At loud volumes the compression in the lows bothered me as did some distortion in the mids that wasn't hearable in standard cabs, but once I moved to a higher fidelity rig became a concern to me.

I took a 'hybrid' approach. Class D and light weight power to compliment a tube front end. I sacrificed size and some weight (moved to a 3 space standard rack) and while not 6 pounds, I'm in the 20 and less range. What I have for that is very clean, high power with lots of headroom for transients even at volume. I also gain all of the harmonics and richness that people think of when they look at old heavy gear.

That issue had more to do with impedance, sensitivity, and the absolute wattage level than anything to do with amp topology or brand. The LMII (as you have reported also) puts out an honest, realistic 500 watts. It 'is what it is', and with a relatively high sensitivity 4ohm cab, it will crank with the best of them. With two large, moderate sensitivity 8ohm cabs, not so much.

 

[jebersole]

If the length of time I've had my GK 2001RB in the for-sale forum is any indication, I think everyone has switched, or plans to switch to a micro head...

I hate to go lower with the price as I think it's killer, but no ones buying!

 

[BurningSkies]

Also, to be fair, gigging is a tough business now, and there are a lot of guys still gigging those SVT3Pros and Eden WT800's that sound absolutely fine, and that have no cash to even make it worth 'keeping up with things'. So, +1 to your point that TBers represent a the population of what are called 'early adopters' in the new product marketing/R&D literature. Kind of the 'edge of the sword' as to predicting where the market is going in the future IMO.

I said..L.A. BASS... I still can't figure out this quote thing...

I have to say that as a weekend warrior who for over 30 years of playing 7-8 gigs a week and now play 3-4 gigs a month. Must really always make tough decisions about the cost vs. payout... I love to keep up with the Jones's. But it becomes a hard sell to me and my wife when I think about dropping $2500.00 on a new bass rig to go make $100.00 a night when I have a perfectly fine bass rig that in all other parts of the universe minus TB would never even be recognized by any other players. I can't remember the last time a guitar player or a drummer scams over to have a look at my gear! People always comment on my playing and singing, but almost never on the rig itself. I guess it's just not that exciting to anyone else.

So to stay on topic, I did buy a new rig last year, I moved from a Eden WT800 amp weighing in at 26lbs and an Eden 410 Bass Cab weighing in at 93lbs. To my new Mesa Boogie M9 Carbine weighing in at 28lbs and the Mesa Boogie Power House 410 Bass Cab weighing in at 96lbs. I really wanted to go lighter, but I never found a NEO speaker cab that sounded as good to my ears and the M9 just pummeled everything else I tried. I live in L.A. And I have tried everything! I had to go with the extra weight even though I thought I would be lightening the load. For me, sound won out over convenience.

I'll say...since I started playing paid gigs, there are fewer stages, lower pay scale and more expectations (like bringing your own PA or paying for the sound that's stock in the room, or taking the door sitter's pay out of the band's take).

 

[Kitsapbass]

+1 Very hard to try any of this stuff locally. The days of 'try before buy' are pretty much over, and the days of professional musicians hanging out at the local mom and pop music shop and exchanging ideas, etc. is also almost totally over (other than a few 'mega mom and pops' in a few cities, like Bass Northwest or whatever.)

It can be quite overwhelming for a player who has been gigging his Eden WT800 for 15 years and is interested in 'something else', but has little info other than looking though a bewildering range of amps on Musician's Friend.

Talkbass is a good source to help sort things out, but that too can get a bit overwhelming for the guy or gal who drops in for an hour a year just to get some specific info.

I live about an hour away from BassNW - and to be honest, the last time I went there may just be the last time ever. But that's another thread.

I tend to get most of my gear jones out here as well as seeing other bands really - listening to how people with more money and less kids than me buy their gear and how they like it, what tones they can get out of it really.

 

[grendle]

Because no micro amp I have ever tried comes close to sounding how my Marshall Lemmy sounds. I agree with Mike Arnopol's post. For me there is just something missing in the sound of the micros. It's not big or full enough for me. Nothing to do with loudness.

+1

The volume is there with the micro's but they lack the tone of the large transformer amps. I prefer the class A/B amps personally. The A/B amps have a depth to the tone that the class D stuff lacks. For portability though and if your running mainly through FOH, its hard to beat the micro's.

 

[L.A. BASS]

I have to say that as a weekend warrior who for over 30 years of playing 7-8 gigs a week and now play 3-4 gigs a month. I must really always make tough decisions about the cost vs. payout... I love to keep up with the Jones's. But it becomes a hard sell to me and my wife when I think about dropping $2500.00 on a new bass rig to go make $100.00 a night when I have a perfectly fine bass rig that in all other parts of the universe minus TB would never even be recognized by any other players. I can't remember the last time a guitar player or a drummer scams over to have a look at my gear! People always comment on my playing and singing, but almost never on the rig itself. I guess it's just not that exciting to anyone else.

So to stay on topic, I did buy a new rig last year, I moved from a Eden WT800 amp weighing in at 26lbs and an Eden 410 Bass Cab weighing in at 93lbs. To my new Mesa Boogie M9 Carbine weighing in at 28lbs and the Mesa Boogie Power House 410 Bass Cab weighing in at 96lbs. I really wanted to go lighter, but I never found a NEO speaker cab that sounded as good to my ears and the M9 just pummeled everything else I tried. I live in L.A. And I have tried everything! I had to go with the extra weight even though I thought I would be lightening the load. For me, sound won out over convenience.

 

[BurningSkies]

+1

The volume is there with the micro's but they lack the tone of the large transformer amps. I prefer the class A/B amps personally. The A/B amps have a depth to the tone that the class D stuff lacks. For portability though and if your running mainly through FOH, its hard to beat the micro's.

Then you like the Markbass LMII/LMIII?

 

[funkyjudge]

I normally only use combos, but I have used an Ashdown little giant 1000 and mibass 550 and I love them, they can pack a lot of punch and they are small and light, so don't more bassist use them? And why don't more companies buy into the idea? What are your oughts tb?

In my area (Philadelphia, PA/South Jersey), I would say that far more than half of the "Pro" bassists that I see playing midsize to fairly large venues use new, lightweight bass heads (Genz-Benz Shuttle/Streamliner, Epifani UL-501/Piccolo models, Aguilar Tone Hammer, Markbass, TC Electronics, G-K MB500/MB Fusion, etc. Many others use what I would term "midweight" heads (Aguilar AG500/AG500 SC, Epifani "Performance" Series, G-K Fusion 550, etc.) The exceptions that I see tend to fall into one of the following categories:

1. Bassists who have reached a high enough level of fame (and compensation) that they have suport crews to load and set-up/tear-down their equipment.
   
2. "Old school" rock bands who almost always use an SVT head (many times a "classic" SVT), and a 6x10, 8x10 or multiple 4x10 and 2x15 cabinets.

Lately, I have been noticing that even many of the touring acts that play the large theatre and ballroom/concert venue gigs (everything short of arena gigs) are using lightweight or midweight amplification .... TC Electronics and Genz-Benz heads seem to be most popular among these guys, but I also see several using the Aguilar AG500 Series andGallien-Krueger "midweight" heads.

Just my $.02 contribution.

Cheers! .... Doug

 

[funkyjudge]

Well, most companies do offer micro amps, and they are very popular.

Lots of guys like all tube designs though, and there really isn't a way to do that in a small format.

Also, there are many different playing/schlepping contexts. If you don't play out much, or play out with a band that helps you load your stuff, or are 17 years old and don't care about weight, etc., etc., then the premise of an ultra light amp would hold very little interest with that group of players.

However, to your point, the 'heavy solid state' amps do seem to be going the way of the dodo bird, for the most part.

+1 ... ain't that the truth!

 

[Munjibunga]

I've sold off all my heavy amps (except my DB750) and replaced them with lightweight amps. The micros come in many flavors, ranging from the warm, somewhat tubish TCE RH750 (like a DB 750) to the clean, modern GK MB800 (like a Heart-Rock). I also have a 1996 WT-300 which, at 13 pounds and smallish footprint, was a step toward miniaturization in its day.

While there's something about my DB750/GS410 rig that sets it apart from the micros, there isn't enough difference to justify routinely hauling it to gigs. The head in its rack case is over 50 pounds, and the cab is 95 pounds. I can get comparable volume and tone from my 4-pound MB800 or Shuttle 9.0 and a 62-pound AE410. So do I want to lug 150 pounds or 66 pounds?

Anyway, to answer the OP's question, Ken is right. Lightweight amps are moving from the early-adopter stage to very widespread use. However, you won't be seeing one on Kenny G's stage any time soon.

 

[stiles72]

This---------

To me, micro amps are still where cd's were when they first came out. They were convenient and relaible. They had low noise floor. But they just were missing something when compared to records. Then technology improved bit by bit (no pun intended) and they became more competitive with records in terms of detail. Records are coming back because they have a certain "something" not present in cd's.
I think it's the same with micros. (little ones--not 10 pounders) They do really cool stuff. Many are better than the EA in terms of actual output. For me, though, there is a certain "something" with power transformers, et al..I'm looking seriously at Roger's and others offerings. Under 25# is still doable, and I know that there are certain gigs where this would be great.
Micros will inevitably keep improving, and eventually give me more of the "whump" that I want. I was an endorser for WW YEARS ago, but I just couldn't get the impact I wanted.

I've noticed my PF500 does have a totally different feel than my 3-Pros or any of my tube amps. It's much "softer", and doesn't have quite the "impact" that even my B-100R puts out. I love the tone, convenience, and portability - but to get the same "balls" out of the amp - it does require some tweaks to my settings. Once dialed in though, it rocks.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Adam Bomb]

Just in case no one has put this angle out there yet, my rehearsal space rig is *always* of the heavy/bulky variety. That's what makes it the rehearsal space rig. Less likely to be knocked over, or to walk away. So sometimes when I shop for gear I am specifically *looking* for weight. Make that, the heavy/bulky/inexpensive variety, since we often pay for portability.

I gig through a pair of GK combos that sound great and weigh 66 pounds combined. My 200-lb. biamped rack rig (featuring an 85-lb guitar cab) sounds great too, but it isn't going anywhere until I change bands. And even then I will probably have to make 2 trips.

--Bomb

 

[blindrabbit]

While there's something about my DB750/GS410 rig that sets it apart from the micros, there isn't enough difference to justify routinely hauling it to gigs. The head in its rack case is over 50 pounds, and the cab is 95 pounds. I can get comparable volume and tone from my 4-pound MB800 or Shuttle 9.0 and a 62-pound AE410. So do I want to lug 150 pounds or 66 pounds?

I get more volume and better tone from my under 30lb GB/Traynor rig than I did from my 100lb early '90s Redhead. I could add another 25lb cabinet and be even louder still, and still barely over half the weight of that old combo. Heavyweight gear just doesn't make sense anymore. That said, I reserve the right to contradict myself if I ever get the opportunity to own a Traynor YBA300 and TC808 cabinet.

 

[randysmojo]

I think there are class-D amps out there that are getting to the point of competing with that tube stuff, and a lot of the working class guys don't run all tube rigs anyway. There are a lot of great tones out of tube fronted class-D amps, but I think a lot of guys are still unsure about the reliability and just the logistics of a powerful amp that doesn't weigh that much. I was so skeptical until asking a lot of guys that have used them for years and finally borrowing one from a friend to try it myself. I went for Genz Benz and the tone beat a lot of big A/B amps I've owned and if the tube gain is set right can rival the SVT3Pro I had for a while. I bought a ShuttleMax 12.0 to replace the SVT3Pro and can get pretty much the same tone out of the tube channel as what I did with the Ampeg, but have the Fet channel to get other tones out of, and more! It is just weird to have so much power and tone in such a light package. For the longest time it sounded like weird voodoo and I didn't believe it could work or be reliable. I have seen the light, and think that it will take a long time for this technology to convince everyone since the previously excepted has been around for so long.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

IME, the light weight switching amps don't quite have the same "weight" (no pun intended) in the low end that heavy lead does. I have one micro - the 250 watt amp in my Carvin MB12. That things sounds really good, especially when coupled with a nice extension cab. However, it definitely doesn't have the thick, solid low-end that I find with lead sleds. I think with the current technology, you're still going to be hard pressed to mimic the tonal characteristics of something like a DB750 in a micro package.

I'd still like to give an Ampeg PF500 a whirl, though.

 

[KJung]

IME, the light weight switching amps don't quite have the same "weight" (no pun intended) in the low end that heavy lead does. I have one micro - the 250 watt amp in my Carvin MB12. That things sounds really good, especially when coupled with a nice extension cab. However, it definitely doesn't have the thick, solid low-end that I find with lead sleds. I think with the current technology, you're still going to be hard pressed to mimic the tonal characteristics of something like a DB750 in a micro package.

I'd still like to give an Ampeg PF500 a whirl, though.

You are comparing a 250 watt amp with a 'lead sled' This is where these 'myths' of a certain class of amp or a certain power supply sounding 'better' than another class of amp.

You are correct that up until relatively recently, there were no SMPS driven amps in the bass guitar amplification category that really matched watt for watt with an amp like the DB750. Now there are.

 

[DJ Bebop]

My 'big' amp was a Carvin RL1000, I think it weights in at about 35 lbs. light for me I thought.

It died after many years of service.

I got the new Carvin BX1500 same format, only it weights 10 lbs.

I was going to put it in the 2 space rack wood case that the RL1000 came in.
The wood case weights MORE than the amp itself!

I am thinking rack bag.

 

[KJung]

+1

The volume is there with the micro's but they lack the tone of the large transformer amps. I prefer the class A/B amps personally. The A/B amps have a depth to the tone that the class D stuff lacks. For portability though and if your running mainly through FOH, its hard to beat the micro's.

As mentioned above, some micro amps are class A/B, and some larger amps are class D. You are describing voicing, not capability IMO.

I agree with Mike that the particular EA micro he mentions is not representative of what is out there now. It is all about frame of reference.

Also, entire lines of amps have different voicings compared to other lines of amps. If you compare the Genz1200 to a DB751, you would have the same impression as if you compared the Genz Max 9.2 (class D and SMPS, similar wattage) to the DB751. The Genz amps are voiced a bit tighter down low, and a bit brighter up top, whether they are class A/B with a transformer, or Class D with SMPS.

IMO and IME!

 

[klyph]

As the technology progresses, there will be more choices. I loved my Yamaha when I got it, but my main band switched drummers, and the new one was a much heavier hitter. The amp couldn't keep up and still deliver the same tone I was used to at lower volumes, so I switched back to my 50 lb. Ampeg for the majority of my gigs. I just got a shuttlemax 12- great tone, and plenty loud! Hopefully this means I can leave the Ampeg at the rehearsal space.