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Micro Bass Heads, why doesn't everyone use them?

#61
Remember that amp models are different in other ways than size, power and weight. One of the best things about my WT800a is its huge and powerful eq section, and as of yet I haven't seen or heard any micro that can match it in that respect. I bought my amp based on considerations of sound, power, versatility, reliability and price (used is always the way to go with good gear, IMO), not so much on weight or size, since I have my amp in a flightcase and need transportation to lug my 8x10 anyways. Certain brands work with particular design philosophies and include different features on their products, and these considerations might very well mean more than portability to some. For example, a 1.5kg hybrid amp with 2000w @ 4 ohm, 40 bands of graphic eq and whatever else might get thrown out of the equation because of a poorly designed DI or the lack of a biamp mode. Who knows?

If I needed a secondary head, I might go micro, but right now I just don't see any justification for that kind of luxury in my life, and would rather spend my money elsewhere. It certainly is not something that I feel like I 'need'.

Martin
 
#62
Micro's are far from sonically perfect , just A/B any micro along side a good toroidal transformer driven amp ,its apples and oranges fidelity wise , micro's are certainly convenient and work well enough for a variety of situations,though I'd never record with one . A traditional transformer driven amp will win hands down in the clarity and fidelity department digital power supply's are not very musical ,in fact they're just the opposite, digital power supply's generate a great deal of harsh signal noise and require a great deal of damping in order to get a usable audio signal especially in the higher end ,hence you don
't see any digital power supply based guitar amps ,Although they're getting better they still don't match a traditional amp by any stretch
 
#63
JimiLL said:
Ur saying no one reads musicians friend or sam ash catalogs or whatever?

To say the general bass public doesnt use micro amps because they dont know about them is a little.....:rollno:
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I didn't say "no one".

Many musicians do not care about bleeding edge technology. This includes bassists.

I gigged a 4lb MB F1 heavily for a couple of years and was amazed at how mant bassists came up to me asking what I was playing thru.... They were generally shocked that a giggable amp could fit in a gig bag.

I see a lot more 10-20lb Eden, older GK, Ampeg, SWR, Peavey and Traynor than I do new 3-10lb micros. Not even close actually.
 
#64
I have seen more people with older type a/b amps than d-class, but I have also heard guys with tone that really got my attention and saw a Markbass or Genz Benz micro amps on stage. I have also had other bass player rave about my tone with a Genz Benz micro. There is so much room for choice and so many leadsled amps out there with good tone that it will be a while before you see micros as often probably. I'm just glad there are so many choices and I happened to find what I was looking for in a micro without compromising tone in any way including low end!
 
#65
Mike Arnopol said:
To me, micro amps are still where cd's were when they first came out. They were convenient and relaible. They had low noise floor. But they just were missing something when compared to records. Then technology improved bit by bit (no pun intended) and they became more competitive with records in terms of detail. Records are coming back because they have a certain "something" not present in cd's.
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Best analogy of this entire thread :)
 
#66
eban3 said:
Micro's are far from sonically perfect , just A/B any micro along side a good toroidal transformer driven amp ,its apples and oranges fidelity wise , micro's are certainly convenient and work well enough for a variety of situations,though I'd never record with one . A traditional transformer driven amp will win hands down in the clarity and fidelity department digital power supply's are not very musical ,in fact they're just the opposite, digital power supply's generate a great deal of harsh signal noise and require a great deal of damping in order to get a usable audio signal especially in the higher end ,hence you don
't see any digital power supply based guitar amps ,Although they're getting better they still don't match a traditional amp by any stretch
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Rubbish IMO. You also see very few non-tube guitar amps. Totally different issue there.

I would take any bet that if you blind tested a sample of 10 non SMPS amps versus 10 SMPS based amps, NO ONE would identify the power supply topology at better than a chance level. Period.
 
#69
I've gone micro and love it. The smaller and lighter the better, for me. I'm 62, and no slouch, but I love lightweight gear. I play a lot, so I get tired easily of carrying heavy stuff. My Little Mark III and Traveler 151P rig sounds great (although I wish the speaker were even lighter).
 
#70
Because there are things that and old lead sled class AB or H can do that a class D amp SMPS amp can't without being economically and practically unfeasible. An example would be how GK's RB series amps growl as it hits it's power rails. I don't believe class D amps are even allowed to hit their power rails. It's the same story with why tube amps still exist. No matter how much DSP you throw into a SS amp, it still doesn't sound AND feel like a tube amp, although they are getting closer all the time.
 
#72
WingKL said:
Because there are things that and old lead sled class AB or H can do that a class D amp SMPS amp can't without being economically and practically unfeasible. An example would be how GK's RB series amps growl as it hits it's power rails. I don't believe class D amps are even allowed to hit their power rails. It's the same story with why tube amps still exist. No matter how much DSP you throw into a SS amp, it still doesn't sound AND feel like a tube amp, although they are getting closer all the time.
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Remember, there are quite a few 'mix and match' designs out there. For example, the iAmp800 is a class D amp with a toriodal power suppy (as is the Epi502 and I believe the AG500). The Markbass LMII is a class A/B amp with an SMPS.

It is not wise to use amp or power supply topology (other than wanting an all tube signal chain) as buying criteria IMO. Yes, each amp made, regardless of topology, sounds a bit different. No other amp I've ever heard, for example, will give you that open, airy, beautiful upper mid and treble response of the Walter Woods.

Also, for example, both the GK RB series and the EBS HD and TD series use class H power amps (as far as I know), and they sound TOTALLY different.

Much better to work on defining what tone and 'feel' you are looking for, and then trying a wide variety of amps regardless of topology,versus automatically eliminating an entire class for whatever reason.

Once you compare a Walter Woods to a Genz Streamliner to TC RH750 to a Genz Shuttle 9 to an Epifani Piccolo to a TecAmp Puma500/900, you realize that there is a similar variation in tone and performance among so called 'lightweight amps' as there is comparing all the 'standard' heavier power supply amps among themselves, or the various all tube amps among themselves.

If you rank all these amps based on various tone or perfomance profiles, IMO, the power amp type or power supply type will be almost randomly mixed in the list of most buyers.

There are exceptions of course. If a primary part of your tone goal is power tube break-up, well there you go. However, for almost everyone else, there is probably a number of amps out there that would make them happy, regardless of size, weight, etc., when 'power matched'.
 
#73
Exactly, Ken.

People have come to assume that Light=Class D and that's no the truth, nor is there any correlation to tone due to SMPS. What a lot of people are hearing is preamp voicing and a few other amp design choices like limiting and compression and how those have been implemented. Sometimes I think the waters are muddied by the fact that many times these amps are paired with small/light cabinets, many of which also aren't voiced for big lows, or have been engineered with intentionally small boxes which will give a cab a mid-emphasis to start with.

There's a whole lot of mythology about SMPS amps or class D amps not hitting their rails. They certainly can, but some designers have put limiting in place to either stop it or to minimize it.
 
#74
BurningSkies said:
Exactly, Ken.

People have come to assume that Light=Class D and that's no the truth, nor is there any correlation to tone due to SMPS. What a lot of people are hearing is preamp voicing and a few other amp design choices like limiting and compression and how those have been implemented. Sometimes I think the waters are muddied by the fact that many times these amps are paired with small/light cabinets, many of which also aren't voiced for big lows, or have been engineered with intentionally small boxes which will give a cab a mid-emphasis to start with.

There's a whole lot of mythology about SMPS amps or class D amps not hitting their rails. They certainly can, but some designers have put limiting in place to either stop it or to minimize it.
Click to expand...

+1 Your 'box pairing' comment is right on. For example, many who have only tried an LMII/III in a Guitar Center only have heard that head through a very small, brightly voiced 112 or 210 combo cab.

I guess the main point to me is that if a player is happy playing his old Eden WT800a or whatever, there is surely nothing wrong with that, and that amp still sounds wonderful today. However, IF that player wants to try something new, or is tired of a 30+ pound rack, there are many options out there that would make him happy IMO.
 
#75
KJung said:
+1 Your 'box pairing' comment is right on. For example, many who have only tried an LMII/III in a Guitar Center only have heard that head through a very small, brightly voiced 112 or 210 combo cab.

I guess the main point to me is that if a player is happy playing his old Eden WT800a or whatever, there is surely nothing wrong with that, and that amp still sounds wonderful today. However, IF that player wants to try something new, or is tired of a 30+ pound rack, there are many options out there that would make him happy IMO.
Click to expand...

I agree. My old Hartke 3500 MOSFET sounds fantastic. Just different from my LMII which I happily used. Now I'm using a tube front end with a Class-D power amp. It sounds tremendous too. I didn't really like the GB Shuttles I've played, nor did I like the RH450. I gigged a Mesa 400+ (The definition of 'big iron bass amp) and could never get a sound out of it.

People need to stop judging an amp by how it reads on a scale, the size of the box or the letter that's attached to the amp design.
 
#78
i understand what you mean by preamp voiceing, but in my case i A/B/C/D tested the power stages of different amps using the same preamp. the output power ratings were from 500- 1200w. they all sounded great with subtle differences in nuiance, but the clear winner was a Class H power supplied amp!

my son was the least knowledge-able person in the room, but the first one to yell, Holy Cow! i hear guys saying all power sections sound they same, but the don't, IMHO!!!
perhap the component specs and build quality won out in our contest,.. maybe it was input sensitivity, impedence matching, etc. i don't know.:confused: everything sounded more musical to everyone in the room.

not to be specific, but the test products in the room were from Fender, Mesa Boogie, Mark Bass, Demeter, Stewart Audio and Peavey with the bass, preamp, and cab being the only constant. YMMV :)
 
#79
pacojas said:
i understand what you mean by preamp voiceing, but in my case i A/B/C/D tested the power stages of different amps using the same preamp. the output power ratings were from 500- 1200w. they all sounded great with subtle differences in nuiance, but the clear winner was a Class H power supplied amp!

my son was the least knowledge-able person in the room, but the first one to yell, Holy Cow! i hear guys saying all power sections sound they same, but the don't, IMHO!!!
perhap the component specs and build quality won out in our contest,.. maybe it was input sensitivity, impedence matching, etc. i don't know.:confused: everything sounded more musical to everyone in the room.

not to be specific, but the test products in the room were from Fender, Mesa Boogie, Mark Bass, Demeter, Stewart Audio and Peavey with the bass, preamp, and cab being the only constant. YMMV :)
Click to expand...

There can still be a lot of variables, everything from the input attenuation on the power stage or amp, limiting/compression on the power stage, and any additional 'baked in' processing in the power amp stage. I'm not saying there isn't a difference between brands and models, just that it's not necessarily in the places we think.
 
#80
BurningSkies said:
There can still be a lot of variables, everything from the input attenuation on the power stage or amp, limiting/compression on the power stage, and any additional 'baked in' processing in the power amp stage. I'm not saying there isn't a difference between brands and models, just that it's not necessarily in the places we think.
Click to expand...

agreed,.. yet, therein lies my confusion! i'm not even saying that amp sounded better because of the Class Type. it was more of evaluating power sections in response to the notion that sound quality was totally dependent on parameters set before the output amp stage.
 

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