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Double Bass Middle Finger Placement in German Bow Hold

Steve Freides

Former Mannes College Theory Faculty
Supporting Member
Dec 11, 2007
2,576
1,508
Ridgewood, NJ
I don't know if this is the right forum, but it's a bow-related question for all who bow German.

3 pictures attached - would call call the middle finger placement on all three acceptable, all three good, all three poor, do you have a preference, etc. Comments appreciated.

NB: the piece of music on the stand is from a student trumpet book, just what happened to be on there.

-S-
 

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So, I don't like any of the original three either.

The contact points for all your fingers and thumb should be on the last joint, on the pad except for the 4th finger. There's another contact point between 1st finger and thumb, just behind the 1st finger first knuckle (where the screw or stick touches behind the frog). Otherwise the bow only touches your hand when you are right out at the point during the turnaround. Hold the stick like you would a pencil, more or less, and control the bottom of the frog with your 3rd and 4th fingers.
 
First 3 seem wrong. The last group from IonaBass ? seem right. I was taught that the second finger needs to be under the bow to help reduce bow weight. The second (and first assisting ) can help lift the bow reducing the weight on the G and higher positions if you need to. Having said that there seem to be as many variations on the German hold as there are European countries.
 
I'm almost but not quite getting what you're all telling me; a bit of background here might help:

Until about 4 month ago, I was essentially a self-taught bassist. I had about 10 minutes of lesson with a friend who bows German - she showed me both ways and we agreed that German would be easiest for me. It's also worth mentioning, without tooting my own horn too much, that I have a doctoral degree in music, taught college for about 15 years, have perfect pitch (which makes intonation things extremely clear for me) and have played guitar for 50 years and electric bass for 40. So self-taught doesn't mean I just picked up a bass in my garage and started playing - when it came to playing pizz, I essentially could play the upright bass the first time I tried it.

I've been taking lessons in earnest since September but my teacher bows French. I'm taking the opportunity to slowly learn French bowing from him but it's slow going for me and since I also started, in September, playing with a local concert band, I've felt it's important for me to continue to mostly bow German because that's the only way I'm able to play for anything longer than a few minutes.

I really appreciate the responses I've gotten in this thread, and I would really appreciate being talked to like I'm 8 years old instead of 58 because I think hearing and seeing things at that basic a level is what I need.

I'm rambling but humor me as I think it's relevant to make the above clear - my friend who gave me the 10 minutes of lessons really stressed the importance of finding my stance with the bass, and for whatever reason, I've got that. My teacher has commented on how good my stance is, and how he'd really love to be able to take some of his undergrad and even grad students and have them start over with their stance because they still don't have it right, their ability to play at a high level not withstanding.

That's above is how I feel with my German bow hold - I can certainly play, but I feel like I've missed some important fundamentals about how it's supposed to work. Of course, if anyone feels like I would benefit from looking at specific online resources and/or buying books or videos, please point them out to me and I'll get them.

Many thanks.

-S-
 
Ok, some more specific observations. The second finger is the main support, with the first assisting. The middle finger just floats, it doesn't grip or hold anything. The pinky should definitely support the bit where the hair connects. The thumb seems to be a variable part of the hold. Some wrap it around, some just lay it on top. The most important bit is to realise it's a bow hold not a grip. Even when 'working it' a relaxed as possible hold works best.
Weight is controlled by using the second finger to lift and reduce weight or by using the full pressure of the arm to increase it.
The hand itself doesn't do that much work.
Good luck with the bow. Unfortunately the better you get the more you realise how much more you have to go lol.
From someone who has a long way to go :-)
 
The site seems to be down now, but Robert Oppelt had a fantastic page where he demonstrated a variety of German bow holds and discussed the benefits of each of them. Maybe someone "borrowed" it and has it saved somewhere? Point is that there are a few mainstream ways to hold a bow, but there are a lot of variations. In almost every variation I have seen, the contact point is your finger tip, or the last joint.

Starting with your little finger, and then working "up" to your thumb:
Little finger: Generally speaking, most people have the tip of their little finger on the ferrule. From what I gather from Don's photos, his is mostly on the tip of the finger. Depending on the size of your hand, you might have the tip, pad, or side of your finger on it, but I can't think of a "school" where that isn't the contact for your little finger.
Ring finger: There is a bit of variety here. Some people have it touching the top of the ferrule or a little farther back like in Don's "from above" picture. Some people have it more or less floating where it would touch the frog if the throat wasn't cut out, and some have it up next to the middle finger on the "back" of the frog.
Middle finger: Every school I have ever seen has this finger under the stick, keeping the bow horizontal/holding it up against gravity. It is usually where the stick and the frog meet. Some people have it very curved and touching on the finger tip, others have it far less so, and it is more on the pad of the finger.
Index finger: This finger is either under the bow the way Don has it in his photo, or slightly on top. This is one of the most common deviations from school to school, but basically the "on top" method is where the side of the tip of your finger is on the corner facet of the octagon, and it can apply some of the weight into the string.
Thumb: A lot of variety. Some people have it on the opposite corner facet from their index finger, some have it directly on top. Some have it pointing down the stick, some across. Different schools have it across the bow touching the index finger, and you will even see it almost in a "thumbs up" position. Generally speaking it is also responsible for helping you get weight into the string, but you don't want it to be locked and white knuckled.

With that said, my grievances with Steve's variety of grips/holds are as followed:
The little and ring fingers should be as above, because you are sacrificing a lot mobility/flexibility in your hand, especially with your ring finger looped through the throat that far. It may feel like you have a better "grip" on the bow, but it also means that the bow is stuck and can't go anywhere. Your hand needs to be loose and responding to the bow change initiated in your back, and it looks like you are creating a lot of unwanted/needed tension. Loosening up will make bow changes a lot smoother and faster passages easier.
I like your middle finger in the first picture the most. Again, I cannot make my finger wrap around the stick/frog as much as the third picture without my finger being locked/tense.
Your index finger in the second picture looks like it is between where Don has it "under" the stick, and I would have it on the top corner of the octagon. Somewhere in between the first two (leaning towards the second) would be where I would have it, but some would say it should be even more under the stick. The other two photos lead to a tenser finger, and depending on how tall your frog is can also mean opening your hand too wide. You also lose mobility when it's on the joint/second section of your finger.
The thumb is a little hard to see. I would lean towards your second photo again.

I think Don's photos are a good place to start. I have a smaller than some/most hand, so any photos that I post would not necessarily be that helpful as my own personal variations are a little bit different still. If I had a better camera/was more technically inclined, I would document the variety of holds I am familiar with. I should really develop some better computer skills...
 
Steve,
My comments apply only to the particular photos of the grip I use:

The thumb, first and middle finger (and the pinky, to a lesser extent), act together to slightly "push" and "pull" the stick. The photo from "above" doesn't clearly show it, but there is about 1/4 inch between the edge of the frog and the inside of my palm. The curvature of these fingers, (thumb, first and middle), allows for a slight "push/pull". Try this:

Place the bow on the D string at about 6 inches from the tip. Now, using your thumb, first and middle fingers, (NO ARM), pull the frog slightly into your palm- it should move about 1/4". ( Note: the thumb may "roll" slightly upward as it pulls; the pinky will simply flex as it remains in contact with the ferrule). Now, using the opposite motion, "push" the frog away from the palm of your hand.
Another way to isolate this motion is to gently place the tip of the bow against a wall, and push against the bow- your palm should touch the frog, as your fingers curve. Now, reverse the motion by "pushing" the stick with your fingers - the frog should now move away from your palm, as your fingers return to their original curvature. Keep in mind that if the fingers are too "flat", (against the frog), they will not be able to execute this push/pull motion.
Starting a note, begins with this motion.

Next, place the bow on the D string at its midpoint - let your arm weight rest upon the string. You should be able to "grab" the string, making it move sideways slightly ( but NOT sounding!), back and forth. This is a good indication that the weight of your arm is now "connected" to the string. To sound a note, initiate the slight downbow "pull" with your fingers, (sounding the D), and then immediately involve the arm/shoulder, etc., and play a long downbow.
This stuff is difficult to explain with words, I've tried to describe the basic process.
Good Luck.
Thanks for your time and interest.
 
I use the Streicher bow grip. You can see a photo here (Thanks to Lemur Music):
dob02.jpg


We don't use the thump and, as you can see on this photo, the middle finger is on the side of the stick and we transfer the weight of our arm with our index finger.
Sometimes if we want to go for a pianissimo we can lift our index and let the middle hold the bow, but most of the time its only job is to assist the index to keep the bow at the proper angle.
The pink rests on the bottom of the ferrule and the ring finger does not apply any preassure on the frog.