Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Minimum wattage to play with some buddies
- Thread starter Ray Ng
- Start date
Not so much speakers size as total speakers area. For example, 2x10" speakers are equivalent to the speaker area of 1x15" .
This is the classic TB-scenario, where a newbie asks a simple question and gets swarmed with technical jargon. Sure, it's probably correct information, but serves no purpose other than makes the posters feel self-important.
So, a simple solution: get a cheap but somewhat powerful amp (anything from 150W to 1000W) and cabinet (probably 1x15 to 4x10). Then upgrade later when either one gets annoying. Or, if you're made out of money, buy an expensive rig and upgrade when GAS strikes.
So, a simple solution: get a cheap but somewhat powerful amp (anything from 150W to 1000W) and cabinet (probably 1x15 to 4x10). Then upgrade later when either one gets annoying. Or, if you're made out of money, buy an expensive rig and upgrade when GAS strikes.
No even speaker size exactly: sensitivity (= efficiency) depends on many factors, size is important but at equal size some speakers are more efficient than others.
YES. That's the best thing to do. Try as many as you can by yourself.
That's what most beguiners do, but you have to give us as many details as you can: what's your budget, what tone are you after, where do you intend to play (rehearse and gigs), and so on.
There are so many good product available today that if you don't give us enough detail, we're all going to drop the name of our favaorite amps and cabs or combos, and you will get even more confused and/or learn nothing.
It is complex, be patient and try to understand the main concepts first.
You'll find a lot of explanations here:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/am...overunderpowercabs-diy-techtalk-links.166225/
Nope. Just trying to be helpful.
Some people appreciate the technical explanation and some do not.
Plenty of responses gave a less complex answer, so either way the OP received suitable answers.
I’m surprised, usually by now someone says it has been asked a million times, have you searched? Instead, there is opines and tech info, both solid and silly sometimes both.
More speaker, than amp, the speaker moves air, makes the sound waves we hear, amp just moves electricity. Simple?
Air moved equals volume.
Now I feel like a pillock, no reason for me to poo poo your answers. Sorry and carry on!
I would really suggest you get an amp that will deliver at least 250-watts rms (not peak watts) into one 8Ω cab and 500-watts into a 4Ω load, which would be either two 8Ω cabs (best choice) or one 4Ω cab.
Reason I suggest that is 250 to 300-watts rms is enough with most speaker cabs to play both small and medium-sized venues. So it's a good place to start for playing with your buddies, plus will also allow you to play real gigs with your buddies in most venues.
For your first speaker cab, I would suggest a 210 cab that will handle at least 300-watt rms. That 500-watts rms into 4Ω amp along with an 8Ω 210 cab will get you playing gigs in small and medium-sized venues. When you start playing large venues or outdoor venues where that power and cab are not enough, you can buy a second 8Ω, 210 cab to take advantage of the rest of the power the amp can supply. That second 8Ω cab together with the first one will put a 4Ω load on the cab so it can deliver all 500-watts (each cab will get 250-watts) and that gives you a de facto 500-watt 410 rig, which is enough for large and outdoor venues too.
I'd suggest you get a separate head and cabs because it's easier to upgrade them in the future and you're not tied down to a specific sound. However if you want to get into that for less money, I'd suggest you look at the Fender Rumble 500 and the Ampeg RB210 combos. Both of those have 500-watt into 4Ω amps and both have 2x10" speakers in them.
The Fender gives you a little more power into its combo because it can deliver up to 350-watts rms into its internal speakers. The Ampeg RB210 can deliver up to 250-watts into its internal speakers. Both of them will do the job on small and medium-sized venues just fine. The biggest difference between them is their distinctive sounds, which are different. Only buy one of them if you like the sound of it because you'll be locked into that same brand for an extension speaker. Both of those combos also sell for about $650.
Either way you go will work fine. If you like the Fender sound, their Rumble 500 is a good choice. If you prefer the Ampeg sound, their RB210 is a good choice. Both of those will give you a modular system where you can just use the combo as is in most of your gigs, but will be able to expand those 250 to 350-watt 210 combos to 500-watt 410 rigs with the addition of a second 210 cab.
Again, my personal preference is for separate amp and cabs so I don't have to sell a complete combo to upgrade the power or speakers I want. It's more expensive to buy separates at the beginning, but more versatile and less expensive to upgrade. I personally will use either of my two 800-watt amps that I have along with my DNS-210 (by DNA) cab for indoor gigs and my DNS-410 for outdoor venues and music festivals. I bought my 410 first and later figured out I really needed something smaller for small venues where they wouldn't let me use my 410. So I bought the 210 later and wished I had bought it first and then added a second one. But the money is spent and now I have an 800-watt +610 cab set-up if I really need it or just decide I want to use it.
Nope. Ultimately how loud you get is a product of the combination of amplifier power and speaker efficiency (and other things but let's touch on these two first).
A big speaker (or big cluster of smaller speakers) can usually be efficient but isn't necessarily efficient. When it's not efficient it needs more power to reach a particular volume. You might be buying a huge amp in order to waste a lot of power to be heard.
See @Wasnex 's post for a clearer explanation with numbers, https://www.talkbass.com/threads/minimum-wattage-to-play-with-some-buddies.1660913/#post-28703711
The reason why I asked the questions I did is that different types of music call for different kinds of amps. If you're playing metal and the guitarists have Marshall stacks, you're going to need a lot of power and speakers to be heard. If you're playing 60s rock and the guitarists have little portable combos you can also get away with something smaller. If the drummer can only play by slamming the drums with every bit of strength he's got, you'll need more volume.
Unfortunately for us, even though we can get a lot of volume out of relatively (compared to 30 years ago) small setups these days (thanks to advances in amplifier electronics and speaker design), we still have to carry a lot more equipment than a guitarist, whose 20 watt combo amp can be plenty for many gigs.
Last edited:
Speaker efficiency matters. Usually the way you achieve that is through size. But it's not a simple or necessarily obvious relationship that you can use intuition to resolve. Some big speakers are less efficient than other smaller speakers. It doesn't even mean the big hypothetical speakers in this comparison are bad -- they might be less efficient because they have more bass extension, or the cabinets are smaller, or they sound so terrific it's worth putting up with the inefficiency. It depends on what you want and need and can afford.
For many people 120dB is the threshold of pain. Wear earplugs people!
For a first amp to jam with buddies? That’s a bit extreme, unless Yngwie Malmsteen or James Hetfield are your buddies.
Really good advice! FYI, I wore ear plugs on the vast majority of gigs. Do I like wearing ear plugs? No, but I feel they are essential if you want to have the any chance of preserving good hearing.
There’s a lot of comments here like "100W is the minimum for playing with a drummer, get a 200W amp, just to be certain".
Wasnex’s post shows the sobering statistics. With the same speaker cabinet, a 200W head at full power is only 3dB louder than a 100W amp. If you want something “twice as loud”, which is 10 dB, you need ten times the wattage.
To put this into perspective, listen to the audio below to hear what dB changes sound like for yourself. 3dB is not much at all.
In this demonstration, it starts at the original level, the next is 3dB louder, the next is 6dB louder, the next is 10dB louder. It then bounces back to the original level, back to the boost of 10 dB then back to the original. Try listening at a pretty loud level to get the best comparison.
Starting from 100 watts driving the same speakers, to get a 3dB increase would need 200 watts, to get a 6 dB increase 6dB would need 400 watts, to get a 10dB increase would need 1000 watts.
To my ears, the 3dB boost is the hardest to hear. The 6 dB is pretty noticeable and the 10dB boost is twice as loud.
Adding speaker cone area is the other way to get a boost. If you have an amp that puts out 100 watts at 8 ohms and 200 watts at 4 ohms and have two identical 8 ohm cabs, running the amp with both cabs (a 4 ohm load) will be 3dB louder because of the higher wattage and 3 dB more for the added speaker cone area for a total boost of 6 dB. That’s the same as using only one cab with a 400 watt amp.
Wasnex’s post shows the sobering statistics. With the same speaker cabinet, a 200W head at full power is only 3dB louder than a 100W amp. If you want something “twice as loud”, which is 10 dB, you need ten times the wattage.
To put this into perspective, listen to the audio below to hear what dB changes sound like for yourself. 3dB is not much at all.
In this demonstration, it starts at the original level, the next is 3dB louder, the next is 6dB louder, the next is 10dB louder. It then bounces back to the original level, back to the boost of 10 dB then back to the original. Try listening at a pretty loud level to get the best comparison.
Starting from 100 watts driving the same speakers, to get a 3dB increase would need 200 watts, to get a 6 dB increase 6dB would need 400 watts, to get a 10dB increase would need 1000 watts.
To my ears, the 3dB boost is the hardest to hear. The 6 dB is pretty noticeable and the 10dB boost is twice as loud.
Adding speaker cone area is the other way to get a boost. If you have an amp that puts out 100 watts at 8 ohms and 200 watts at 4 ohms and have two identical 8 ohm cabs, running the amp with both cabs (a 4 ohm load) will be 3dB louder because of the higher wattage and 3 dB more for the added speaker cone area for a total boost of 6 dB. That’s the same as using only one cab with a 400 watt amp.
old 150 watt or above combo's will do the job. You need at least 2x10 or 1x15. Or 2x12. 100 watts may seem to work. In the end it is not enough.
I wasn't implying that you should have responded quicker and there's no need to apologize......I was just having a laugh at the usual TB thing where so many people reply with recommendations before we even know what your needs are. For all we knew you only needed something small to accompany an acoustic guitarist in coffee shops, in which case most recommendations would have been completely wrong.
My only advice (having now seen that you want to play rock) is get the loudest rig you can afford at the moment which probably means second hand. Don't worry too much about what rig has better "tone" than another....... you won't know what kind of tone you want until you've been playing for longer.
If you can tell us your budget then you'll get a lot of (slightly) more targeted and relevant recommendations.
You are not alone there.
If you find something in your budget and you are not sure about it then ask here.
If you can swing around $600-$700, get a used Gallien-Krueger MB212ii. Sounds great at practice volumes and can go loud af (technical term).
One other thing we all need to know is if you will need to transport the amp / speaker or if it will stay in a permanent place.
If you have to drag it around and you don't have a car then an 8x10" Ampeg "Fridge" is not the best choice for you.
If you are young and strong with a big wagon you drive around then you might find people wanting to sell you their Ampeg 8x10" Fridge.
If you have to drag it around and you don't have a car then an 8x10" Ampeg "Fridge" is not the best choice for you.
If you are young and strong with a big wagon you drive around then you might find people wanting to sell you their Ampeg 8x10" Fridge.
I've got one of those and they are fantastic. Very light weight and if you need any more volume than they produce then you have stage volume issues and will soon be deaf.
