minor key progression

[HolmeBass]

From notation perspective, A Aeolian = A minor = A natural minor (= C major) ; all the same notes.
the "real minor key" , if there is any , would probably be the one that the key signature indicates, which would be Amin ( C maj.)
Even if the song has an E7 ( using a G#) , the key signature is usually still A min (C maj) and the #7 is almost always indicated as an accidental .

Thanks, yes this is complicated because the key signatures always seem to relate to the natural minor. This makes it tricky sometimes to say a song is "in a minor key" if the harmony switches to the relative major, or starts major and ends relative minor, etc. But ultimately this makes sense re: key signatures and correlates with my (admittedly limited) experience reading notation.

to answer your first post, i would consider Am Dm Em either A minor,
or -since in some genres ,A minor is assumed to be a Harmonic minor, I might specify A Natural Minor

All this thinking can be useful for learning, or composition, but If you're trying to communicate to other musicians, simply communicating the specific chords is sufficient.

Yes, I am a fan of the letting the actual chords do the speaking when it's the nitty gritty of getting people playing together.

But I have been finding myself wondering more and more about various minor key resolution scenarios, just in a theoretical sense. I have found: minor tonics with both IV and V minor, both major, or just the V minor, or just the IV minor! I feel like they are all diatonic in some key/mode, just not all necessarily a major mode. So I have been trying to shed in the harmonic minor and melodic minor and explore these ideas of relationships explained in a more classical sense: dominant, sub-dominant, etc.

 

[HolmeBass]

The harmonic minor scale is just a melodic tool that came into being because of the necessity of raising the 7th of the scale to accomodate the introduction of a dominant V chord. Without a V or other dominant function chord, which the OP's first example doesn't have, there is no dominant-to-tonic harmonic movement. That's why we can look at those chords as just being modal. Sure, you can put roman numerals above them (I-, IV-, V-), but there's no functional harmony going on.

I appreciate your response. I am troubled by one thing that is sticking as an inconsistency to me though. You're saying this progression is "just modal", rather than having "harmonic movement" of dominant to tonic.

But in a major key, the harmonic movement of dominant to tonic *is* modal- that is, it is diatonic. So just because a given chord progression is diatonic doesn't seem to imply to me it has no real harmonic movement... or am I confounding things again? The v (minor V-chord) can't function as a dominant? Does a stronger dominant function stem from the note that is 1/2 step away from the tonic? (Taking a wild guess...)

 

[longfinger]

Just wondering if you guys view minor keys from the minor scale or from the major scale? For example if the progression was Am Dm Em would you see this as a i iv v progression in the key of Am or would you view it as a vi ii iii progression in the key of C?

Context is everything..

If you change the order and use..

Am , Em, Dm

(or the same in any other key,) it is the same progression in the song Ain't No Sunshine. That particular song is in minor. Chords go i .... v(bv), iv, i...

The music changes, what conventions that were standard in Germany in 1720s are not exactly the same as the conventions that were standard in the USA in the 1970s
There are different acceptable ways to establish a tonality now. (Same ways existed before, but they were not stylistically acceptable)

==

some songs flip flop between the two.... like "Fly Me to the Moon", and "Autumn Leaves", whether you prefer flip, or flop, is up to you, and how you understand and hear the proper cadences in the tune.

 

[FretlessMainly]

Adding confusion to this question is that A harmonic minor has an F, not an F#; the harmonic minor does have a G# instead of a G (making the V-chord a dom7), but a post above suggested it was the F/F# that determined this question. Which is odd, since that determines whether the IV-chord is major/minor, rather than the V-chord.

My question about F natural vs. F# was in the context of what might be played over the Emin chord. So, my question was more directed at how the Emin chord was functioning in the progression. Since the OP indicated F natural, it's pretty clearly all A natural minor.

But again, my question does not relate to the first two chords, only the Emin. My reasoning was that while the first two chords might be A natural minor, the Emin could be functioning in a different key - which might be demonstrated by the use of an F# in contrast to the F Natural (or it could have been another non-chord tone over the EMin; I simply chose to ask about the 9th because that's a note that is often played as a natural 9 (in this case, an F#) in contrast to the diatonic b9 (in this case F natural)).

 

[Snarf]

I appreciate your response. I am troubled by one thing that is sticking as an inconsistency to me though. You're saying this progression is "just modal", rather than having "harmonic movement" of dominant to tonic.

But in a major key, the harmonic movement of dominant to tonic *is* modal- that is, it is diatonic. So just because a given chord progression is diatonic doesn't seem to imply to me it has no real harmonic movement... or am I confounding things again? The v (minor V-chord) can't function as a dominant? Does a stronger dominant function stem from the note that is 1/2 step away from the tonic? (Taking a wild guess...)

The major scale is the only one where a V7 exists without modifying the notes native to the major scale in that key. A V- just isn't a dominant chord. It must be a triad or dominant-7 chord that is a V to a I. A dominant chord must contain a tone a half step below the tonic of the key, which is the major third of a V chord. This is why, after the Rennaissance, composers started raising the third of the V chord in minor keys, so that a dominant relationship to the I could be established. E minor doesn't have that relationship with A minor. It sounds fine, it sounds like music, but it doesn't sound like a dominant chord in a minor key. So without a chord that has this function, we're playing modally, in this case in an Aeolian mode (although I would say the F is an avoid note over E minor, doesn't sound very good). And yes, the E minor is analyzed as V- (or v) in this case, and you can call it in A minor, but without a dominant chord, the harmony is just sonority, and not "functional."

Edit: And by the way, adding the F# as a 9 over the E minor is a super neat sound in the context of this progression. Super hip, I might actually use it in a tune in a few minutes.

 

[FretlessMainly]

Edit: And by the way, adding the F# as a 9 over the E minor is a super neat sound in the context of this progression. Super hip, I might actually use it in a tune in a few minutes.

It's funny, but the reason why I asked if the OP was playing an F natural or an F# over the E minor is because many players wouldn't automatically choose the Phrygian-derived F natural that stays diatonic to the A natural minor. Many players might see E Minor and play the natural 2 (or 9) in most situations. This is "wrong" if the goal is to remain diatonic to A natural minor, but happens to be "a serendipitously hip-sounding mistake" if there's enough flexibility to throw it in here.

Sometimes that's how cool things get discovered. A mistake sounds good and then can be used on purpose from that moment forward.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It's funny, but the reason why I asked if the OP was playing an F natural or an F# over the E minor is because many players wouldn't automatically choose the Phrygian-derived F natural that stays diatonic to the A natural minor. Many players might see E Minor and play the natural 2 (or 9) in most situations. This is "wrong" if the goal is to remain diatonic to A natural minor, but happens to be "a serendipitously hip-sounding mistake" if there's enough flexibility to throw it in here.

Are you talking about solo players or bass players?

In your case, when only Am, Dm, and Em chord structure is introduced, I would play all the white piano keys, which means no F#. I would say, that Em - Phrygian mode - sounds much better.
But, if a tune/melody purposely introduced F# early,
with the Am chord, something like E F#G E B B A,
with the Dm chord - E G B A (no F# or even F),
then with the Em chord, it would be possible to repeat something similar to E F#G E B B A.
But again, F# in your chord structure case, would be an exception.

 

[HolmeBass]

Thanks FretlessMainly and Snarf, that all makes lots of sense and is clicking. Awesome!

The dominant chord needing the leading tone is a good handle, a useful definition. So is the discussion of F/F# in terms of Emin - being Phrygian (and diatonic to A Aeolian) or, with the F#, E Aeolian (I think-- E, F#, G, A, B, C, D - yes!). Thanks guys, always cool to get some insight.

So to think about the hipness of the F# on Emin V- chord: it's basically a nod towards A Dorian, right?

 

[FretlessMainly]

Are you talking about solo players or bass players?

In your case, when only Am, Dm, and Em chord structure is introduced, I would play all the white piano keys, which means no F#. I would say, that Em - Phrygian mode - sounds much better.
But, if a tune/melody purposely introduced F# early,
with the Am chord, something like E F#G E B B A,
with the Dm chord - E G B A (no F# or even F),
then with the Em chord, it would be possible to repeat something similar to E F#G E B B A.
But again, F# in your chord structure case, would be an exception.

I'm referring to any musician. As a bass player, I use the 2 often in my lines.

In any case, perhaps you are saying that the F natural sounds "better" because it is diatonic to the progression being interpreted in A Natural minor. I don't know if it's "better," but it's probably "more conventional." Thus, it sounds less odd to the ear.

My way of thinking about snarf's introduction of the F# over the Emin is that it's effectively modulating to E natural minor for that one chord. If you introduce the F# over the Amin, then you are no longer in A natural minor, and you run the risk of ambiguity over what key you are in for all three chords. Then again, that's not always a bad thing, as long as you get all the musicians on-board as to the harmonic structure - what sounds good and what does not.

Lastly, I wouldn't call the introduction of the F# over the E minor an exception; rather, a reinterpretation of the harmony. Or do you mean the F# would only get thrown in on occasion and most of the time you'd play the Emin Phrygian line?

 

[FretlessMainly]

So to think about the hipness of the F# on Emin V- chord: it's basically a nod towards A Dorian, right?

Well, I think of it as E natural minor, which is related to G Major just as A Dorian is.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Or do you mean the F# would only get thrown in on occasion and most of the time you'd play the Emin Phrygian line?

I was constructing the phrasing with the F#, while in the Em chord, then repeating it with the Am.

Also, you gave us the TRIADS, - Am, Dm, Em - just three chord notes and a lot of questions.
All those three chords are the white piano keys.

How would you change your play in case of the following chord progression - Am, Dm, Gm?
Would you play the Bb note?

 

[FretlessMainly]

I was constructing the phrasing with the F#, while in the Em chord, then repeating it with the Am.

OK, well I wouldn't generally tend to use the F# over the Amin because then the tonal association with A natural minor is lost.

Also, you gave us the TRIADS, - Am, Dm, Em - just three chord notes and a lot of questions.
All those three chords are the white piano keys.

Well, I didn't give you those chords, the OP did. But I agree, I always try to express chords to include 7ths, unless the expressly do not, of course. However, what you might be missing here is that what defines the chord function is not the chord tones, it's the non-chord tones. So if the question is, what key is this progression in, after analyzing the obvious chordal relationship, I immediately think 9, 11, and 13, not chord tones. Hence my question as to whether the OP would play a F natural or an F# over the E Minor. His answer pretty solidly indicated that the whole progression was likely to be in A natural minor.

How would you change your play in case of the following chord progression - Am, Dm, Gm?
Would you play the Bb note?

Of course.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

OK, well I wouldn't generally tend to use the F# over the Amin because then the tonal association with A natural minor is lost..

One more time. Please explain to me the REASON that you have a triad PURE A - C - E (only) and everybody needs to assume that it is A natural minor.

Because you like it?
Because the composer of that song told you so?
Because the melody clearly uses the notes from the natural minor?
Because the next chord is the Dm and you are trying to harmonically lead to it and link them properly?

So if the question is, what key is this progression in, after analyzing the obvious chordal relationship, I immediately think 9, 11, and 13, not chord tones. .
.

Let's say, if I, a composer, wrote down a simple "pure" Am chord (it's a pop song for children) and you, as a harmonically skillful musician, immediately started thinking about/and playing the 11th or 13th chord notes, you wouldn't get a recording job for my song. That's not proper "grammar".
Let's say, the Rolling Stones hired Darryl Jones and Darryl immediately started seeing and playing the 11th or 13th chords because he is a jazz player.
He is a superb jazz musician, but the Rolling Stone's songs don't require the 13th chords.

On the other hand, if a composer (for only his reason)decided to write a simple Am, but asked you to see/play it as the A 13th, then it's up to your imagination.

 

[FretlessMainly]

One more time. Please explain to me the REASON that you have a triad PURE A - C - E (only) and everybody needs to assume that it is A natural minor.

Because you like it?
Because the composer of that song told you so?
Because the melody clearly uses the notes from the natural minor?
Because the next chord is the Dm and you are trying to harmonically lead to it and link them properly?

It's not absolutely A natural minor, but it sure looks like it would be. Why? Well, partly because the OP said he would play an F natural over the E minor. This rules out A Jazz minor and you wouldn't want to hammer a G# over the E minor, so this rules out A harmonic minor. This assumes one key for all three chords, of course.

If I were to hear the melody, I would certainly be more informed in my decision. But your last point is a good one - A minor to D minor sure sounds like diatonic A natural minor. The E minor is a natural continuation of A Natural minor. But as snarf suggested, you could play an F# over the E Minor (although the OP opts not to, one could...), in which case the first two chords are likely in A Natural minor and the E Minor is in E natural minor.

Let's say, if I, a composer, wrote down a simple "pure" Am chord (it's a pop song for children) and you, as a harmonically skillful musician, immediately started thinking about/and playing the 11th or 13th chord notes, you wouldn't get a recording job for my song. That's not proper "grammar".
Let's say, the Rolling Stones hired Darryl Jones and Darryl immediately started seeing and playing the 11th or 13th chords because he is a jazz player.
He is a superb jazz musician, but the Rolling Stone's songs don't require the 13th chords.

On the other hand, if a composer (for only his reason)decided to write a simple Am, but asked you to see/play it as the A 13th, then it's up to your imagination.

Well yes, serve the song. I'm not saying that as a guitarist I would play the 9, 11, and/or 13th in my chord voicings, but if the piece called for some melodic lines, I wouldn't limit myself to chord tones only. Thus, which 9ths (b, natural or #), 11ths (natural or #), and/or 13th (b or natural) fit the best would dictate how the chords in the progression are functioning, thus dictating (or helping to dictate) the overall key (if there is indeed one single key). Hence why I asked the OP if he would play an F natural or an F# over the E minor.