Missing out by not being able to read music?

[topo morto]

With the advent of technology we may see different ways of communicating music to each other crop up that rival standard notation, but its just not standardized yet.

Notation does leave out some variables, but not many. Dynamics, feel, style, can all be notated. Sure, note length is pretty much "set", but you can suggest a style to play in and the player will know what to do. But you are correct in that it comes down to individual interpretation and that one player may play it differently than the other.

All this is moot though unless you have a better way of doing things. Standard notation is still the standard and for good reason.

Sure - although I have some ideas (something like a 2-d version of the Nashville number system, but numbered 0-11...) But I'm sure no-one else would like that!

Still, the OP was basically asking if SN was worth learning, which is not the same question as 'Is SN as good as we can do?'

I'm not even sure why we would need the accuracy you are suggesting with regards to note lengths.

Let's say you didn't have a computer or a recorder - and you wanted to preserve for eternity a really funky rhythm that made a lot of use of subtle swing and little timing pushes and pulls...

But as I said, timing isn't the worst thing about standard notation - it's the 'C Major is king' nonsense!

 

[Febs]

Very true. Actually, tab written out well (can't stress this enough) can be pretty much on par with notation, if not better since it shows you fingerings and shapes.

As I understand his point, though, he is referring to text-based tab laid out on a grid, and not tab that incorporates the timing aspects of standard notation. The former is incapable of notating timing with anywhere close to the precision of standard notation. The latter can show timing with the same precision as standard notation, but only because it actually uses the timing aspects of standard notation to do so.

 

[AngelCrusher]

Very true. Actually, tab written out well (can't stress this enough) can be pretty much on par with notation, if not better since it shows you fingerings and shapes.

I have never seen tab that shows phrasing as accurately or even on par with notation.

The other thing about notation is when you see the note to play, you don't see 17th fret on the 3rd string. You see it as an G. That is very important.

the more you read notes, the more you can actually read the composition and hear the music in your head before you actually listen to the piece.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Of course, in the time we've all taken to talk about this, everyone here could have learned to play a simple C scale on their bass using notation only.....

 

[AngelCrusher]

Let's say you didn't have a computer or a recorder - and you wanted to preserve for eternity a really funky rhythm that made a lot of use of subtle swing and little timing pushes and pulls...

But as I said, timing isn't the worst thing about standard notation - it's the 'C Major is king' nonsense!

I see now. you are most likely a guy who makes beats or EDM. Because the way you are thinking is not musical.

If you wanted to preserve a funky rhythm you would notate it properly. that is it. Go look up a Jaco transcription.

It sounds like you are not well schooled in music because that "funky rhythm" you are imagining is still going to be a series of notes that follow standard notation.

You are thinking about MIDI programming on a grid and not about a real player playing music.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

ONLY on bass and guitar. Or would you attempt to play a cello or a saxophone with tabs? That's pretty limiting in and of itself. But would you attempt to play a song for cello on a bass using only standard notation? Yes, it would be perfectly doable.

Nothing wrong with good tabs, though. They're just not meant to substitute standard notation.

As I already hinted at, tab was created for guitar and bass. This isn't the best analogy, but it'd be similar to trying to cook with a sledge hammer and chain saw. Those tools simply weren't meant for cooking, just like tab wasn't meant for reading with other instruments. BUT, that's not an argument I'm looking to get into. I already said learning to read has it's place if you have certain goals with music in mind. Otherwise, you might be better off spending your time learning other things with your instrument.

 

[tbplayer59]

Depends if you are set on playing in a cover band..then no. If you want to go further and play in a jazz group or band that shows and up reads and plays from charts .. then yes.

I know cover bands that use charts... because they have a horn section. ToP, Chicago, etc. Much easier with charts.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

I have never seen tab that shows phrasing as accurately or even on par with notation.

The other thing about notation is when you see the note to play, you don't see 17th fret on the 3rd string. You see it as an G. That is very important.

the more you read notes, the more you can actually read the composition and hear the music in your head before you actually listen to the piece.

I have, so your miles obviously vary from mine. But, again, this isn't an argument I'm looking to have. I can read and yet I use tab more than notation simply because it's more readily available for the bass instrument. It, in combination with things like Youtube, makes learning songs a complete breeze. But on the off chance I come across a gig where I need to know how to read I'm ready. Again, no need to argue for the sake of arguing unless you just enjoy reading your own posts over and over.

 

[bassbully]

I know cover bands that use charts... because they have a horn section. ToP, Chicago, etc. Much easier with charts.

For the record I was refering to your basic blues,classic rock ,country bands.

 

[topo morto]

that "funky rhythm" you are imagining is still going to be a series of notes that follow standard notation.

I have worked with some very good EDM producers and played bass on Deep House tracks and they work backwards. They make their music quantized and then have to slide it around to try and get the same feel as a live player.

Standard notion is also essentially quantised, so those little slides that need to be added to 'get the live feel' would be missing from the standard notation.

 

[aborgman]

No, There is no accurate way to represent note timing with TAB.

Actually, there are a number of forms of tab which can indicate accurate timings.

That being said - standard notation is STANDARD. It derives the majority of its value not from being the best form of notation, but from being a relatively "universal" standard.

 

[AngelCrusher]

I have, so your miles obviously vary from mine. But, again, this isn't an argument I'm looking to have. I can read and yet I use tab more than notation simply because it's more readily available for the bass instrument. It, in combination with things like Youtube, makes learning songs a complete breeze. But on the off chance I come across a gig where I need to know how to read I'm ready. Again, no need to argue for the sake of arguing unless you just enjoy reading your own posts over and over.

I dont like reading my own posts over and over and dont really consider this an argument personally. More of a debate.

I agree that it is easier to learn a song with TAB. That is why people use it. But over time, if you want to really expand your playing and learn different phrases..etc, reading will do that.

Just to learn a song real fast - use whatever. I just use my ears. But I am talking more about the ability to get faster and better at improv, and not just read music to figure out a song.

The more you sit there and say A, or Eb while you are playign it, the faster your ears develop and the better your phrasing can get in my experience.

 

[topo morto]

How does your example show the duration of each note? What if you want to play one of the four quarter notes shorter than the others?

It's true that rests aren't often shown on tab... you could show them with tied notes or other symbols though.

Note again that my point isn't that tab is awesome, but that standard notation is not some insight into the heart of music. And no-one has picked up on my major beef yet!

 

[AngelCrusher]

Standard notion is also essentially quantised, so those little slides that need to be added to 'get the live feel' would be missing from the standard notation.

Actually there are symbols and written musical terminology that explain that.

You are looking at music as a programmer and not a player.

Live feel is a result of a good player playing properly notated music.

Programmers attempt to emulate that as close as they can, but the way they do it is either by playing it live on a keyboard or MPC, or playing it quantized and then sliding the notes around.

Also there are simple dynamics that in standard notation that can indicate the feel of a passage.

You may want to go over this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_symbols#Lines

 

[dmac1961]

Quote:
Originally Posted by topo morto


But as I said, timing isn't the worst thing about standard notation - it's the 'C Major is king' nonsense!

You've mentioned this twice, and I really don't get the point. Are you saying C Major is king because it doesn't have any accidentals in the key signature??

 

[Febs]

It's true that rests aren't often shown on tab... you could show them with tied notes or other symbols though.

It's not just a question of showing rests. Grid-based tab like what you used in your earlier example doesn't contain any information at all about the duration of notes.

Let's say you have a musician who can fluently read both standard notation and the type of grid-based tab that you used in your earlier example. That musician has never seen or heard the musical "West Side Story." You want that musician to play the melody for "I like to be in America! O.K. by me in America! Ev'rything free in America! For a small fee in America!" Can you show me a way, using the grid-based tab you used in your earlier example, to notate that melody so that our musician friend can play it accurately?

 

[topo morto]

Actually there are symbols and written musical terminology that explain that.

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_symbols#Lines

None of those symbols can precisely notate any arbitrary timing - you have to do it in terms of the grid. I refer you to posts 59 and 66 - but in general what is notated is a simplified version to avoid such silliness.

 

[SactoBass]

I remember sometime back in the 80's going to see Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman, and Howe. Chris Squire was not in the group at the time.

They had some guy playing all of Chris' bass parts. The guy just stood in one spot on stage and played everything from sheet music. Close to the Edge, And You and I, Starship Trooper, you name it, he just played it from sheet music.

I'm sure those of you who feel strongly about the ability to read sheet music will quickly latch onto that story use it as "proof" of how important it is to be able to read sheet music since that skill enabled that guy to fill in for Squire. And you will proclaim that if it wasn't for him having that skill, there would have been no concert at all. Yeah, I get that.

However, my perspective differs.

I thought the guy on bass looked like a total dweeb standing there on stage playing from sheet music. In fact, I think it was Jeff Berlin, although I didn't know who that was at the time. To me, he was just some goofus who played from sheet music. In an orchestra, I suppose that's fine. But at a progressive rock concert? Gee, how exciting. (yawn)

Having played in a YES tribute band, I knew every single note by heart. So does Chris, obviously.

It was at that moment that I thanked my lucky stars that I never put those crutches on me as a young bassist 40 years ago when I started playing, but rather I learned to play by ear and decipher notes from the recordings which planted those notes in my head, and enabled me to have fun playing those notes on stage without the crutches of needing printed material propped in front of me.

Everyone is different. If you read, and like it, then you get on out there and you rock that world with your sheet music and enjoy life to its fullest! Go man go!

For me, I'll be the guy on stage without the crutches, thank you very much!

 

[AngelCrusher]

None of those symbols can precisely notate any arbitrary timing - you have to do it in terms of the grid. I refer you to posts 59 and 66 - but in general what is notated is a simplified version to avoid such silliness.

I don't think you fully grasp how music is PLAYED instead of PROGRAMMED.

2 different things.

 

[Lichtaffen]

I think I've learned more about rhythm by learning to write music. It helps visualization of rhythms, especially complex 16th note patterns. It's tough to understand subdivisions of a beat without that ability. You don't have to know how to sight read, just understand and be able to decipher notes.

Plus, if you have a musical idea you don't have to set up the recorder, just write it down.