Mixing from the stage - real world experience

[Robb Fesig]

I'm intrigued to know why you are using P16s to control your IEM mixes rather than the X air Q interface for the other guys? Don't get me wrong, I love the P16 as a user interface when I have had the chance to use them, but they are really expensive. I haven't been able to justify getting them to use with my XR18.

I bought one because the drummer needed a headphone amp, and it seemed like a no brainer to spend the extra money.
I bought the second because the guitarist gets in the "fog of war" when we're playing, and I wouldn't want him to accidently turn up something on FOH instead of his own mix.
Third one is a spare/waiting for a keys player.

If/when we upgrade to the X32 platform, we'll still be able to use them, so they're kinda future proof too.

Depending on how much your mix relies on hall acoustics and stage bleed, yes, highly probably. Say, a guitar is pretty loud onstage in your soundcheck. Thus, you don't put it through the PA much. When people gather at the front of the stage to form a pit (or dance), it will change how the people further back will hear it. People will most likely absorb the highs, so the mix gets bass-heavy and possible unintelligible very easy. All of this, of course, depending on how the room sounds, how many people come in, how your PA is set up, how much of your mix is from the PA etc... In a sizeable, near perfect room, this is much less of an issue.

With PA support but without mix engineer, all band members should know to not change their levels drastically during the show.

My guitarist runs direct using an AxeFX, all the patches he uses are acoustically the same volume, so I don't have to worry about this.

Why can't these guys adjust these patches so the levels are all even?? Not trying to be a jerk but our lead player's volume is all over the place during a show. The sound guy is constantly tweaking. It shouldn't be that wa, right? I mean, I understand bumping for a solo and what not. But he's incredibly inconsistent.

Fire the drummer?

Is he using alot of effects?

Not sure if you were asking me or @StraffordMike, so I will answer.
Yes, and I use a fair amount of bass and vocal effects, but we use the XR18 at practice in addition to live shows, so any volume/tone changes are noticeable and dealt with at practice.

 

[Robb Fesig]

Can't you achieve the same thing with high quality headphones with the main mix? They should give you an accurate reference of the mix minus the acoustics of the room.

I take it you're going out front without the IEM'S during sound check?

My buddy always bugs me by changing the channel EQ'S for each gig which IMO should be unnecessary. He gets a good sound though so I just trust him.

Yep, IEMs come out, that would be a problem otherwise. Head voice, and reflections from the microphone grill, are still enough to mess up the vocal level from FOH though.

 

[Rocksolid]

I personally would like to get myself a P16. I can run my own stereo IEM without reconfiguring aux sends to stereo and rerouting them to the headphone out on the XR18, and have access to them without having to flip screens while playing and mixing.

 

[Robb Fesig]

I personally would like to get myself a P16. I can run my own stereo IEM without reconfiguring aux sends to stereo and rerouting them to the headphone out on the XR18, and have access to them without having to flip screens while playing and mixing.

Agreed! You never know when you'll need an aux send for something.

 

[Bullitt5135]

We use a Behringer X32 with in-ears. We typically record our last rehearsal before a gig (multi-track to laptop), and spend some time getting a rough mix in the basement -- then we save that scene. At the venue, we load the X32 scene, play & record about 30 seconds of a couple songs for soundcheck, and then play the recording back through the PA to dial in the mix & EQ. During the show, the lead singer's IEM feed is the same as FOH. He's pretty good at listening to the whole mix and adjusting on the fly. We also peg a few friends in the crowd to let us know if anything needs adjusting. It's not a perfect scenario, but in the end we get a lot of compliments on our sound. I'd much rather have a sound engineer handling FOH, but that's just not in the budget.

 

[jad]

I've stressed to my band that keeping levels consistent is critical to the success of mixing from the stage. The guitar players need to be in control of their volume, including whatever small increase is needed for leads. Life has gotten better since both guitar players switched from miced amps to floor boards running direct and through their monitors. They know that making their guitar louder means altering their monitor mix (and that it might bury their vocals), so FOH isn't affected. It's clear that they did their homework to keep their levels even.

Getting back to the original question, my main job as sound man during the set is to mute the FX between songs. I use a mute group for this so delay and reverb are both controlled with a single touch. I use Mixing Station Pro which gives me the ability to set up a big red MUTE FX button. Beyond that, about all I do once everything is set up is adjust the tap tempo on the vocal delay, and tweak the amount of FX to match the song. Your Love has prominent delay and reverb, Pour Some Sugar On Me has much plate, for example. I'll jump off stage once per set to get a feel for the sound in the room. I might act like I'm photo bombing someone's selfie, but I'm really checking the mix.

 

[rtslinger]

Trusted ears in the crowd if you do not have wireless system. is all I will add

 

[lfmn16]

With PA support but without mix engineer, all band members should know to not change their levels drastically during the show.

I forget how lucky I am sometimes. I play in a couple of bands and no one touches their volume after the levels are set. If we need more or less, we turn it up in the monitors.

 

[kalle74]

I forget how lucky I am sometimes. I play in a couple of bands and no one touches their volume after the levels are set. If we need more or less, we turn it up in the monitors.

You're lucky indeed. I've done sound for a living for the past 20 years, and I've lost count on how many times I've had to deal with people constantly fiddling their volume, or have different patches that, of course, have drastic changes in level. Most people are ignorant to the fact that while looking after levels and balances is my job, any surprising events (like a guitar solo boosted 20dB) takes away from a fluent show, turning it into "avoiding disaster". I could also be attending to the more important issues, such as tasteful efx on the vocals, and many minute details that make for a good mix.

 

[Robb Fesig]

We use a Behringer X32 with in-ears. We typically record our last rehearsal before a gig (multi-track to laptop), and spend some time getting a rough mix in the basement -- then we save that scene. At the venue, we load the X32 scene, play & record about 30 seconds of a couple songs for soundcheck, and then play the recording back through the PA to dial in the mix & EQ. During the show, the lead singer's IEM feed is the same as FOH. He's pretty good at listening to the whole mix and adjusting on the fly. We also peg a few friends in the crowd to let us know if anything needs adjusting. It's not a perfect scenario, but in the end we get a lot of compliments on our sound. I'd much rather have a sound engineer handling FOH, but that's just not in the budget.

I'm stealing this idea and pretending it's my own, thank you.

 

[DavC]

i ran sound on stage ... i was right next to one side of the PA ... playing bass, keys , vocals ...

i used a wireless for my bass ... to get an occasional mix chk ... that and ask someone you trust about the sound/mix

was the days before iem's ... so i just got used to how things sounded in my usual spot ... between my amps , vocal monitor and the PA ...

tweaking from room to room , or when the room's crowd/temp changed ... i'd adjust the Main EQ or Xover slightly ...

 

[lfmn16]

You're lucky indeed. I've done sound for a living for the past 20 years, and I've lost count on how many times I've had to deal with people constantly fiddling their volume, or have different patches that, of course, have drastic changes in level. Most people are ignorant to the fact that while looking after levels and balances is my job, any surprising events (like a guitar solo boosted 20dB) takes away from a fluent show, turning it into "avoiding disaster". I could also be attending to the more important issues, such as tasteful efx on the vocals, and many minute details that make for a good mix.

There are a lot of jerks on both sides. Years ago I was playing at the Birchmere in Virginia and the soundman and I were having a disagreement and he said, we can do this any way you want, but if you want the best results, here is what I suggest "..." Being talked to and not down to opened me up to his suggestions and I learned more in ten minutes with this guy than from every soundman before him combined.

Now, if you have 5 bands in 5 hours, I know you can't educate everyone, but in a more relaxed atmosphere, educating someone in a non condescending tone can pay dividends on both sides.

 

[Bullitt5135]

I'm stealing this idea and pretending it's my own, thank you.

Like I said, it's not a perfect solution. Since you're making judgements based on in-ears, it's difficult to react to room acoustics as people fill the room. This is where recording and playing back sound check is a huge advantage. At our last gig, things sounded good in the in-ears, but in FOH, the sub was coupling with the stage and sounding really loud and boomy. A couple minutes out front with the iPad cleaned that up. It's really annoying that bar owners around here always seem to complain when we soundcheck, even though it takes maybe 5 minutes.

However, it's way better than my old band's method, which was to eyeball the knobs on the mixer and hope that somebody in the audience would speak up if it the sound was awful. Not very professional, to say the least.

 

[Robb Fesig]

There are a lot of jerks on both sides. Years ago I was playing at the Birchmere in Virginia and the soundman and I were having a disagreement and he said, we can do this any way you want, but if you want the best results, here is what I suggest "..." Being talked to and not down to opened me up to his suggestions and I learned more in ten minutes with this guy than from every soundman before him combined.

I wonder if that soundman realizes he made such an impression on you that you remember it years later?

Now, if you have 5 bands in 5 hours, I know you can't educate everyone, but in a more relaxed atmosphere, educating someone in a non condescending tone can pay dividends on both sides.

If I thought we could get a decent, non-egomaniacal soundman for decent money I wouldn't have started this thread. Unfortunately it seems they're rarer than unicorns that do tax returns...

 

[lfmn16]

I wonder if that soundman realizes he made such an impression on you that you remember it years later?

Nope, but I wish I could thank him. It just goes to show how far you can get by being nice. I wonder how many volume wars could be avoided if the soundman let everyone know that if they need more volume he will turn them up in the monitors. It certainly won't work on everyone, but if it even worked some of the time, everyone would be much happier.

 

[Steve]

Mixing from a listening position that is about 120 degrees off axis of the horns in the mains and has about half the apparent high end of what the folks out front get...it takes a LONG time to get to know what "dull but not muddy" from behind that is also "Crisp but not harsh" out front sounds like.

Having the main mix blowing at you through a monitor helps a bunch until you get used to the sound you are after

 

[Rocksolid]

Agreed! You never know when you'll need an aux send for something.

How good is the limiter set up on these? Sorry to derail the thread. I have a rack limiter with my IEM so didn't use it's limiter the times I got to use a P16.

 

[Robb Fesig]

How good is the limiter set up on these? Sorry to derail the thread. I have a rack limiter with my IEM so didn't use it's limiter the times I got to use a P16.

It seems to work for the most part, I'd guess if someone generates some nasty feedback it will help. We don't get feedback because we're all IEM, do proper gain staging, and don't move our vocal mics around.

 

[FuturePrimitive]

How good is the limiter set up on these? Sorry to derail the thread. I have a rack limiter with my IEM so didn't use it's limiter the times I got to use a P16.

Well, I haven't blown out my ears since I got it! In all seriousness, you do get a visual indication when the limiter activates as well. It seems to work well for me so far. (But I'm relying on the limiter on my Senn G3 now since my drummer stole my P16M.)