Double Bass Money Jungle: A discussion, and more.

[JBarz]

I couldn’t get through this painful video either. Couple blowhards trying to make content for the sake of content, imho. The “jazz critics” will always have something to criticize … like it’s their freakin’ job. I’d rather just listen to the record, ‘cause at least that puts me in a good mood, lol

 

[WG Plum]

I couldn’t get through this painful video either. Couple blowhards trying to make content for the sake of content, imho. The “jazz critics” will always have something to criticize … like it’s their freakin’ job. I’d rather just listen to the record, ‘cause at least that puts me in a good mood, lol

I couldn't get through it either. It's been consigned to my 'Music Docs' Youtube playlist, never to be viewed again, but saved just in case....

 

[damonsmith]

Have jazz critics EVER actually contributed anything to the music?

These guys are both solid straight ahead players. However, this is an example of cutting off your knowledge of the music at a particular date. Most of my peers could teach a class on straight ahead bass playing and bass players but it is clear Peter Martin has no grounding in free jazz history whatsoever. We should note Mingus had already done Charles Mingus presents Charles Mingus, which has long stretches of free playing in it. Max had already done We Insist! Freedom Now Suite! and would go on to record with Archie Shepp, Anthony Braxton and Cecil Taylor. As far as the swing in the bigger picture they are all locked in, the interplay between Max and Mingus is edgy but not much looser than Motian and LaFaro with Bill Evans, just angrier! Live at the Village Vanguard had been out for a few years by then as well.
It is a good lesson to in learning to separate your taste from knowledge and not let opinions get in the way of information.

 

[lurk]

1. The out of tune piano is a pet peeve, and I can't help but feel there's a bit of racism there on the part of the record company. My Columbia Monk albums have some pianos that would never pass muster on a classical recording on the label. The bass is poorly recorded too: Mingus live had a thicker sound.
2. There are stretches where the music is not happening, but stretches where it reaches artistic heights you just don't get from most trio recordings from that time. How one rates this is very subjective.
3. Max and Duke are rhythm powerhouses, so Mingus felt like exploring other spaces that Jazz Police types don't like. This is the "free jazz" element - a term I dislike - here. Lots of people were experimenting with playing differently at that time.You can hear this clearly in some of Reggie Workman's playing with Blakey, for example. The groove is unshakable, so he explores other spaces. Why repeat what everyone else is doing?
4. Mingus did have mental health issues as anyone who reads Beneath the Underdog knows. Apparently he had a bad day. Too bad they couldn't have tried it again.

 

[rockear]

This thread has me listening again, and I happened across this list that is supposedly the recording order of the tracks, as released on the 2002 re-issue. With the narrative of friction between the players in mind it's pretty interesting to listen this way. You can definitely convince yourself that you hear the temperature of the room changing in spots.

It makes me wonder where the fabled Mingus walkout occurred. Possibly after at least 14 takes of A Little Max? Interesting that they laid down the beautiful version of Fleurette Africain immediately after that.

I also feel like you can maybe hear them get "tired of fighting" on Solitude. Take 4 sounds more settled and like they're listening to each other a bit more to me.



TAKE 1 ......................................................VERY SPECIAL*

TAKE 6 ........................................A LITTLE MAX (PARFAIT)

TAKE 14 ..........A LITTLE MAX (PARFAIT) - ALTERNATE TAKE

TAKE 2 ........ FLEURETTE AFRICAIN (aka AFRICAN FLOWER)*

TAKE 1 ...............................REM BLUES - ALTERNATE TAKE **

TAKE 3 ...........................................................REM BLUES

TAKE 1 .............................................................WIG WISE*

TAKE 2 ......................................................SWITCH BLADE

TAKE 4 ..........................SWITCH BLADE - ALTERNATE TAKE**

TAKE 1 ..............................................................CARAVAN

TAKE 2 ......................................................MONEY JUNGLE*

TAKE 3 .................................SOLITUDE - ALTERNATE TAKE

TAKE 4 .............................................................SOLITUDE*

TAKE 3 ........................................................WARM VALLEY*

TAKE 1 ....BACKWARD COUNTRY BOY BLUES - FALSE START**

TAKE 2 ...........................BACKWARD COUNTRY BOY BLUES

 

[coyote1]

Yeah, I had to wheel it out and listen again.

My own take: the more I listen, the more I like the production. Especially knowing now the full story of the tension in that studio, the bass tone and less than perfectly tuned piano are elevating it in my mind. They could easily have gotten a piano tuner to come ‘fix’ it. I wonder if Duke was consulted on it, and said NO.

If there’s any change to have been made, perhaps have Sonny Rollins come in and blow over WigWise?

 

[Sean Riddle]

Cody Andrew Tinsley on Instagram: "An honor and privilege to learn more about this album from @atelier_mingus Grateful to have chatted with you! #charlesmingus #dukeellington #maxroach #musichistory #jazzhistory"

1,823 likes, 61 comments - codyatinsley on January 2, 2026: "An honor and privilege to learn more about this album from @atelier_mingus Grateful to have chatted with you! #charlesmingus #dukeellington #maxroach #musichistory #jazzhistory".

www.instagram.com

This post which shares some information from Eric Mingus is really helpful in understanding the supposed "issues" with the album.

And personally, I think this is easily one of the greatest albums ever made. Damon made a great point that Duke, Mingus, and Roach don't need common ground. They're all such strong players that it does work. I have found there is an obsession with "hard swinging" albums that follow the tried and true formula of someone playing incredible solos while the bass and drums keep the quarter note going. It's not 1955 anymore people. We don't have to be quarter note mules anymore. Money Jungle wouldn't work if Mingus and Roach were just simply comping behind Duke. It works because they're engaging as equals with Duke and the music. Plus since Duke plays with such a commanding stride approach, it makes total sense that he should take on more of an open approach. It reminds me of a piece of advice I got from Art Lande once during a workshop. Don't play conversationally, play what isn't there.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I've owned this record since it came out and have listened to it many times without knowing any of the backstory. Having all of this new info gives me a whole different perspective. I can't say it changes my perceptions of the music but more of the personalities. Now I imagine how it would feel if I were Max or Mingus. Maybe it would be somewhat like going to a gig and having everything be not what you agreed to, and not for the better. What would our feelings be and would they affect how we played? I think that's something we can all relate to on some level.

 

[lurk]

I'd like to add to my previous post that there were a lot of bassists playing in "standard" jazz formats at the time of this recording, perhaps influenced by "free jazz" besides Reggie; exploring different spaces than the quarter note groove. Richard Davis (check out his playing with the Basie influenced Thad-Mel band for example), Ben Tucker (check out the stuff with Byard), Jimmy Garrison with Trane, Peacock, all come to mind immediately. The criticism by the cat on the right of the screen shows a pre-determination as to what is correct or incorrect typical of the post-Wynton jazz police - jazz college era.

 

[damonsmith]

This is an outstanding album where they are doing similar ideas more blatantly. It could be a better album over all.
Bass – David Izenzon
Drums, Timpani – Elvin Jones
Piano, Guitar – Jaki Byard

 

[bass player 53]

There has been discussion on TB about Buell Neidlinger; there was a 1961 record that he led with Cecil Taylor. He went on to record several albums with Marty Krystall, as Krystall Klear and the Buells. Not completely available on YT at this point, unfortunately.

 

[damonsmith]

There has been discussion on TB about BuellNeidlinger; there was a 1961 record that he led with Cecil Taylor. He went on to record several albums with Marty Krystall, as Krystall Klear and the Buells. Not completely available on YT at this point, unfortunately.

Buell along with the great Don Moore of the New York Contemporary Five are the unsung masters of harmonically free quarter note walking. Buell was great with changes as well. He did a lot recording as classical bassist later on as well. He was fantastic bass player.

 

[damonsmith]

I'd like to add to my previous post that there were a lot of bassists playing in "standard" jazz formats at the time of this recording, perhaps influenced by "free jazz" besides Reggie; exploring different spaces than the quarter note groove. Richard Davis (check out his playing with the Basie influenced Thad-Mel band for example), Ben Tucker (check out the stuff with Byard), Jimmy Garrison with Trane, Peacock, all come to mind immediately. The criticism by the cat on the right of the screen shows a pre-determination as to what is correct or incorrect typical of the post-Wynton jazz police - jazz college era.

Everything you say here is 100% correct, and you guessed it, that dude is a shill for Wynton.

 

[Selim]

very honest and lively discussion and evaluation of the classic recording "Money Jungle", AND, an exploration of the LARGER issue - "I Don't Like This... Even Though I'm Supposed to Like This".

I understand why we musicians can talk endlessly (ask my wife) about the music & musicians that have become a part of our lives. But that video and others like it have no redeeming value -- or me, anyway. Not that the video discussion is wrong or bad or whatever it's more like -- just let the music speak for itself. Talking heads...

Anyway... Don: I do know of what you speak! Three titans making a record together? In my case, it wasn't so much that I was supposed to like it, it's that I so wanted to like it. I recall conversations with other musician friends long ago where we'd be concocting imaginary sessions, like "wow, what if Miles & Hendrix and McCartney and Tony Williams really did make that record.."

But the truth is, any time where something like that did happen, I recall that the music just didn't make it for me. So you wanted it to be great, it should be terrific, but it just didn't work out that way. Money Jungle is one of those sessions for me.

It does have some interesting moments tho.. how could it not, with 3 titans? And to hear Duke in an "out of the box" situation.

I remember reading something a long time ago about this session where Mingus was describing all this wild stuff that they could do, real primal stuff - and Duke replied something to the effect of "Charles, let's not go that far back".

p.s. it's not lost on me that I"m saying 'let the music speak for itself above' and here we are (including me) talking about it! Like Zawinul said once: "Miles. The greatest conversation piece in 20 years." And that was like 20 years ago, and we're still talking about him!

 

[Don Kasper]

let the music speak for itself

Yes, and...
Let each listener "hear" it however they "listen".
Or, to put it another way - "It's OK to not like EVERYTHING".
IMFO, of course.
Thanks for your interest, Selim. (hey - that's MILES backwards! Nice!)

 

[Selim]

Thanks for your interest, Selim. (hey - that's MILES backwards! Nice!)

Aha you picked that up!

Once I was introduced to a guy as Selim and he said something in Turkish to me because apparently selim is a word in Turkish… he seemed disappointed to find out I wasn’t Turkish

Ps it’s only Dave here - Selim is a name I chose as an alternate (or whatever you want call it) when I was in my late teens and In A Silent Way had just come out: music that we needed in 1968

 

[Don Kasper]

Ps it’s only Dave here

OK, Evad!

 

[Selim]

OK, Evad!

Ooh that doesn’t sound too bad either!

 

[ctrlzjones]

The problem with these dorks is their content with Christian McBride is stellar, the more you get into the podcast you find they lack integrity in a lot of places and get extremely cringe as you dig in. A lot of what they put forward is flimsy and easy ideas to keep people coming back. They are locals here - a friend of mine started a LOOONG text thread of all of their most cringey moments!
A prime example is their episode on Paul Chambers was only about his pitch decisions. Chambers made very basic blues and bebop note choices - the reason he is so important is his incredible placement of his quarter notes. As an aside, I have always felt one of the paths that to that placement is working with the metronome on all four notes, but I couldn't quite say why. Now I think it is because Chambers is already swinging within the quarter note - not just the bar.

As far as the album, it was made with full awareness of free jazz. Mingus had a deep interest in free music and the avant garde, he just had a lot criticisms of how the others were doing it. It is a fantastic album. It is great example of bringing something to the beach besides sand.

I usually turn the content from those makers into a text file (as I do with most influencers) via Googles Gemini for not having to bear with all those cheesy/cunny/cool forms of presenting their ideas.

But (!) everything Bob DeBoo does on this channel is really worth watching closely.

 

[damonsmith]

But (!) everything Bob DeBoo does on this channel is really worth watching closely.

I wish I could agree. He is an extremely good bassist, but he dumbs things down as much as they do. He uses cheesy backbeats and he is the one who did the video on Paul Chambers without saying a word about his note placement and feel. He just stuck to Chambers note choices, which as I pointed out are the most basic blues and bebop choices. Which is really the point why he was so incredible: Chambers made root-five lines sound like magic.