More Sheldon Dingwall and Tone Wood

[MultiScaleMale]

Oh, I'm with ya! My old Stingray 5 sported a poplar body and it sounded great.

I still chuckle at the whole tonewood conversation when Eddie Van Halen always got great tone out of basswood bodies, which made up the majority of his signature models.

As many others have noted on this site over the years, if Leo had used oak and pine instead of ash and alder, we'd all be chasing oak and pine.

He did use pine. And now roasted pine is coming back as a replacement for Swamp Ash. I'm guessing that it's a sappy wood and the roasting takes care of that nastiness.

 

[cxcxcx]

Damn - all these years I thought Sheldon Dingwall was one of the finest builders working today. I honestly believed that his desire to make the best instrument he could and his enthusiasm about doing so was sincere.

Now, I see he’s been a huckster and a slick salesman all this time. Thanks for setting me straight, TB!

 

[bass.slinger]

Eric Johnson probably uses those.

Victor Wooten and Gerald Veasley have signature ones…

 

[RichterScale]

I have a poplar board on deck that I'll likely use as a body core. The 1/4" top and back will likely be something pretty and a little harder than the poplar (just for looks). The body will be plenty solid enough to hold screws/hardware and plenty stiff enough to not flex under string tension. It won't be feather light, but the poplar core will be lighter than a solid, heavier hardwood. And it will do its job, mechanically.
The neck will be laminated hardwood and regardless of what species make up the laminates, the neck will be stiff enough to not twist or bow radically under string tension and just flexible enough to adjust slightly with the truss rod.
I can accomplish this with many different types of wood. The end goal is falling withing a desired range of mechanical specs for the frame. Once that's achieved, you have a good platform for the strings to do their job. Then it's time to think about a specific type/brand of string, what pickups and the sound they achieve, their placement and any electronics in the chain.
I'm sorry, but whatever sound the body makes when you knock on it, while it's still a slab, has no real bearing on the sound coming out of your amp speaker. The "tone" it makes when you knock on it, doesn't tell you it's mechanical properties and how it will behave under string tension.
If someone can explain how it does (not a guess,....not anecdote,...not grampa knocking on table top and saying, "ya heard that? That's how ya know it's a good one!" And then getting all bent outta shape when you ask him to explain it....), I'd be more than happy to listen and learn. I love learning how things work and I have no problems being wrong.
But, telling me that someone knocking on a hunk of wood in a 15 sec video, with no explanation and then telling me I'm disrespectful because they build nice basses and I didn't just go along with it like a bobble head,....not gonna work with me.
They are nice basses. I do respect people that are dedicated craftspeople and invest in their work. That doesn't make anyone exempt from being called out on nonsense.

 

[rashrader]

Confirmation Bias is a very powerful phenomenon.

 

[rashrader]

Oh, I'm with ya! My old Stingray 5 sported a poplar body and it sounded great.

I still chuckle at the whole tonewood conversation when Eddie Van Halen always got great tone out of basswood bodies, which made up the majority of his signature models.

As many others have noted on this site over the years, if Leo had used oak and pine instead of ash and alder, we'd all be chasing oak and pine.

Oops. Lots of people have said this already…. But Leo did use Pine. Oh, and you can chase Pine these days…. Modern day Fender is using it in all sorts of US Made guitars and basses.

 

[Bass Viking]

He did use pine. And now roasted pine is coming back as a replacement for Swamp Ash. I'm guessing that it's a sappy wood and the roasting takes care of that nastiness.

My Squier Classic Vibe 50s Telecaster has a pine body.

 

[TerribleTim68]

Sheldon is applying a technology that was patented in 1989 - over 30 years ago. He has an agreement with Ralph Novak that says he sticks to basses while Ralph sticks to guitars. Sheldon is not that far behind those 60 year old designs. On the other hand, Sheldon has a few popular models that are throwbacks, not everything he's doing is trying to be hyper-modern.

Keeping in mind that Novak's patent expired more than 10 years ago, so it's a "gentleman's agreement" at best. Otherwise someone would have to file suit against Ibanez and Kiesel.

 

[micguy]

I would like to see a test where he takes one of these dual density bodies and strings it up with four of the same strings to really prove that it makes a difference. If i can hear an E string on the bass side sounds different than an E string on the treble side, that would prove it.

I like where you're going but....to be a good scientific test, you need to control all the variable besides what you're trying to test. With a Dingwall, that isn't going to happen - string length is a variable that's gonna muddy your proposed test. And you 'd need a symmetrical body - a "Bo Diddley" shaped bass is a better platform.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I have a poplar board on deck that I'll likely use as a body core. The 1/4" top and back will likely be something pretty and a little harder than the poplar (just for looks). The body will be plenty solid enough to hold screws/hardware and plenty stiff enough to not flex under string tension. It won't be feather light, but the poplar core will be lighter than a solid, heavier hardwood. And it will do its job, mechanically.
The neck will be laminated hardwood and regardless of what species make up the laminates, the neck will be stiff enough to not twist or bow radically under string tension and just flexible enough to adjust slightly with the truss rod.
I can accomplish this with many different types of wood. The end goal is falling withing a desired range of mechanical specs for the frame. Once that's achieved, you have a good platform for the strings to do their job. Then it's time to think about a specific type/brand of string, what pickups and the sound they achieve, their placement and any electronics in the chain.
I'm sorry, but whatever sound the body makes when you knock on it, while it's still a slab, has no real bearing on the sound coming out of your amp speaker. The "tone" it makes when you knock on it, doesn't tell you it's mechanical properties and how it will behave under string tension.
If someone can explain how it does (not a guess,....not anecdote,...not grampa knocking on table top and saying, "ya heard that? That's how ya know it's a good one!" And then getting all bent outta shape when you ask him to explain it....), I'd be more than happy to listen and learn. I love learning how things work and I have no problems being wrong.
But, telling me that someone knocking on a hunk of wood in a 15 sec video, with no explanation and then telling me I'm disrespectful because they build nice basses and I didn't just go along with it like a bobble head,....not gonna work with me.
They are nice basses. I do respect people that are dedicated craftspeople and invest in their work. That doesn't make anyone exempt from being called out on nonsense.

Good idea

I think Squire did something like that, for a minute with a Tele style bass.

"A gorgeous sunburst finish over the ash veneer top on a slab basswood body and accurate pickguard shape complete the vintage vibe."

 

[DJ Bebop]

,...not grampa knocking on table top and saying, "ya heard that?

Love that!



"We’ve got lots of theories, we just don’t have the evidence"

 

[ddm0502]

I like where you're going but....to be a good scientific test, you need to control all the variable besides what you're trying to test. With a Dingwall, that isn't going to happen - string length is a variable that's gonna muddy your proposed test. And you 'd need a symmetrical body - a "Bo Diddley" shaped bass is a better platform.

I thought about that. The multiscale nature of Dingwall will certainly throw off the test, it would have to be single scale. I didn't want to nitpick the body shape because the finished product is going to be asymmetrical, so effects of the body shape would be in the finished product as well, but you're right that if we want to see whether the effect is caused by the wood or not, we'd want a symmetrical body shape. Lots of work just to prove one little thing, which is why I expect it'll never happen. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and the burden of proof is on the salesman.

I'm not saying Sheldon Dingwall doesn't make great basses, we all know he does. My main problem is when someone makes a claim and provides "proof" that doesn't match what we'd see on a finished instrument. Knocking on wood is a long way from proving that it affects a vibrating string. Last I checked, no one went to a guitar store and decided which one to buy by knocking on it.

 

[KevInDaBassment]

Confirmation Bias is a very powerful phenomenon.

Yes, I would also say it's a rather useful marketing tool as well.

 

[bassbrad]

I had a 5 string neck-thru that I hadn't played in a long time. So, I cut the maple body wings off, made new ones that were mahogany on the back half and walnut on the front. Peeled off the rosewood FB and made a new one from wenge. Put it all back together, reinstalled all the original pups and electronics and guess what,......
I still sucked.

Stop blaming the bass

 

[DJ Bebop]

Last I checked, no one went to a guitar store and decided which one to buy by knocking on it.

I kinda do, but for other reasons.

On the rare times when faced with several of the same make and model of bass I will knock on them to hear a difference in tone and try the dullest with the brightest knock tone and see if I can hear a difference in an amplified tone. Depending on the shop, sometimes I can but I also realize other factors can come into play as well and make a perceived difference. If it's heavy do I think it has a different tone than a light one and so forth. It's always inconclusive in those settings.

But I never do it to decide on a sale. I'm just there to horse around.

 

[micguy]

I'm not saying Sheldon Dingwall doesn't make great basses, we all know he does. My main problem is when someone makes a claim and provides "proof" that doesn't match what we'd see on a finished instrument. Knocking on wood is a long way from proving that it affects a vibrating string. Last I checked, no one went to a guitar store and decided which one to buy by knocking on it.

Knocking on a piece of wood is useful in building guitars and violins - those folks use tap tones to determine if they've shaved a piece of wood to the right thickness and things like that. Whether or not its as useful with solid body instruments, well....I'm not gonna jump into that fray any more than I have to.

 

[Jogobass]

My local luthier says he made a lot of basses in 35 years and he usually uses the same strings, (his own handmade) pickups and preamp. But the difference in the wood is what made each bass sound unique. I tend to trust someone who makes these things for a living for such a long time.

 

[DJ Bebop]

My local luthier says he made a lot of basses in 35 years and he usually uses the same strings, (his own handmade) pickups and preamp. But the difference in the wood is what made each bass sound unique. I tend to trust someone who makes these things for a living for such a long time.

I think it's more about density than species of wood that affect the vibration of the string. So yes, I can see how different wood can make a difference, just like the difference between wood and aluminum can make a difference in a vibrating string attached to it. I think the old Fat Fingers to change a dead spot on a neck is one example of changing density. But this also could be two different things.

I could be wrong and I am ready to be corrected.

 

[hasbeen]

When I'm evaluating a potential, new instrument, I play it unplugged first, for quite some time. If it isn't resonate and lively unplugged, electronics won't make it so.

However, if it is resonant unplugged and then I don't like the sound once it's plugged in, I can always change the electronics.

 

[frankie5string]

Keeping in mind that Novak's patent expired more than 10 years ago, so it's a "gentleman's agreement" at best. Otherwise someone would have to file suit against Ibanez and Kiesel.

I don't think that mattered. It wasn't an agreement based on the patent, it was just an agreement to stay out of each others way initially. Novak = Guitars, Dingwall = Basses. Didn't Kiesel actually license the tech from Novak early on because they considered making guitars with it?