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Most Important Scale (as per Scott's Bass Lessons)

I don't get the big deal with all the mental hangups with terminology. You learn it, you use it. Any 6th grader could learn all the different symbols for all the different chords in about an hour.

Theory is childishly simple. It's mainly a little 1st grade math, and some rote memorization. Chord substitutions is probably the only slippery aspect of it.

As we all know, it's the execution that's the trick. But the theory, is easy. I don't get why people freak out about it. what I find annoying about music, is how people take simple concepts and turn them into a complicated morass...

Just take a little time to learn the fundamentals and the principles, and all the different approaches make sense however you want to look at it.

It's music, not nuclear physics... I mean really, how hard can it be? Ultimately, you want to be able to communicate with other musicians quickly and efficiently. You don't wanna make up stuff simply because you think you can. There's an actual point to it, besides the scholarly wanking.
 
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Finally a simple explanation to what seemed like a complex issue

It's very simple... I think people either like to keep it mysterious, because we've all come to believe music is some kinda magic, or they simply haven't bothered to learn it in the first place.

The thing that's "hard" about music is that a fundamental concept you learn in a 30 minute lesson can take literally years to work through. I have a ton of those. That's what makes certain lessons "fundamental". But many people think that an hour lesson is "better" than a 30 minute lesson. Not necessarily... And not usually.

But I got spoiled early on when I started playing at a late age, because my teacher was awesome... Literally one of the best electric bass teachers on the planet.. So to me, there's no mystery to it. One reason is because he drills you on stuff nobody else seems to think is important, including myself. But once it's done, you're like wow...

Too bad I've forgotten a lot of what he showed me, lol.
 
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That Professor Hiroaki Honshuku is really strict. From his rules.

View attachment 3032449

Anyway. The professors idea is not just to name a chord, tensions, extensions, but to to determine possible functions of a chord.

What is that chord's function?

Here is how he interprets that -7b5 chord in major and minor.
That's how that professor wants for his students to learn about Tonal (Jazz) Harmony.
The professor is not stricter than JP's stand on the metronome.

View attachment 3032458

Learning how a chord functions is pretty necessary. If you are taught from a perspective of fundamental principles and you happen to see another situation where the same chord substitution might be represented differently, you should still be able to understand it. Nothing is etched in stone.

I'm afraid, I don't see your point on that one.

Concerning the notation, learning to write legibly is something we learn in the 1st grade. So he's teaching student to write legibly. Again, I don't see a problem.

I'm interested in what you are thinking here though.
 
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I don't get the big deal with all the mental hangups with terminology. You learn it, you use it. Any 6th grader could learn all the different symbols for all the different chords in about an hour.

Theory is childishly simple. It's mainly a little 1st grade math, and some rote memorization. Chord substitutions is probably the only slippery aspect of it.

As we all know, it's the execution that's the trick. But the theory, is easy. I don't get why people freak out about it. what I find annoying about music, is how people take simple concepts and turn them into a complicated morass...

Just take a little time to learn the fundamentals and the principles, and all the different approaches make sense however you want to look at it.

It's music, not nuclear physics... I mean really, how hard can it be? Ultimately, you want to be able to communicate with other musicians quickly and efficiently. You don't wanna make up stuff simply because you think you can. There's an actual point to it, besides the scholarly wanking.

Conceptually basic music theory is pretty easy. Unfortunately keeping track of everything that is going on soon exceeds the quite limited capacity of most peoples' working memory. IMHO, the secret to using theory, is to slow down so you can roll things over in your mind and explore it from different angles, because it's not really possible for most mere mortals like myself to see the complete big picture in its entirety.

Regarding why it makes sense to start with majors. I think it relates somewhat to what I just wrote. The intervals that define the major tonality are fixed, so there are less rules and possible note combinations to keep track of. In minor you have to deal with the note variation in natural, harmonic, and melodic forms...in essence minor is a larger and more complicated subject. By learning the majors first you establish a foundation that is easier to comprehend, before moving on to more difficult minor forms. This doesn't prove the one is better or more important than the other, only that there is sense in presenting material using a foundational approach.

For some real fun, consider the variation of the modes and 7 chords associated with the minor forms. I can't honestly say I have the modes and 7 chords associated with major form down cold. It would be very useful to have all of this information somehow crammed into my tiny pea brain. Unfortunately my brain leaks like a sieve.
 
Regarding why it makes sense to start with majors. I think it relates somewhat to what I just wrote. The intervals that define the major tonality are fixed, so there are less rules and possible note combinations to keep track of. In minor you have to deal with the note variation in natural, harmonic, and melodic forms...in essence minor is a larger and more complicated subject. By learning the majors first you establish a foundation that is easier to comprehend, before moving on to more difficult minor forms. This doesn't prove the one is better or more important than the other, only that there is sense in presenting material using a foundational approach.

I'm with you 100% on this. Although, I don't think that minors are any more complicated. Just a little different. It's honestly just a difference of one note in a certain location that determines melodic minor or harmonic minor. But you get them under the fingers using the exact same methods you use for majors.

As an aside, I was working on Freddy Hubbard's "Little Sunflower" and realized that the Harmonic MAJOR works really well over a lot of that harmony. I was analyzing the changes and discovered that scale. I had to look it up to see what it was though. I'd never heard of it before that. Again, there is only a ONE note difference between that and the original major scale.

That stuff is really only important in jazz for the most part, but you can find some cool stuff once you harmonize the scale.
 
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What is that chord's function?

Here is how he interprets that -7b5 chord in major and minor.
That's how that professor wants for his students to learn about Tonal (Jazz) Harmony.
The professor is not stricter than JP's stand on the metronome.

View attachment 3032458

I guess once again, I don't necessarily agree with the professor. Context would be needed to decide if the B-7b5 infers a rootless G7(9) or functions as a ii chord. IMHO you can't always assume a chord's function based upon its shape as notation often indicates something other than what the ear hears.

Then there is the matter that harmony is frequently non-functional. I find analyzing jazz standards can be extremely challenging...I used to think I was simply dim. But after reading threads where respected tenured professors duke it out, I see it's simply not always intuitive because progressions may exceed the bounds of a theory system.
 
But after reading threads where respected tenured professors duke it out, I see it's simply not always intuitive because progressions may exceed the bounds of a theory system.
I guess once again, I don't necessarily agree with the professor. Context would be needed to decide if the B-7b5 infers a rootless G7(9) or functions as a ii chord. IMHO you can't always assume a chord's function based upon its shape as notation often indicates something other than what the ear hears.

Then there is the matter that harmony is frequently non-functional. I find analyzing jazz standards can be extremely challenging...I used to think I was simply dim. But after reading threads where respected tenured professors duke it out, I see it's simply not always intuitive because progressions may exceed the bounds of a theory system.

Exactly. You can't look at a single frame from movie and tell me what the movie is about. It all depends on the frames that came before and the frames that come after.
 
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There are generally 7 notes that are "right", and 5 that are "not right". However you get there, practice until you play almost all "right" notes. I tend to do it without using a bunch of "ian" words, but if your way works better for you, great.

I agree with the fellow who says the postal scale is important. Mine's technically a kitchen scale (weight accurate to the gram up to 5.5 kg). This has allowed me to make basses that are light enough to avoid grunting sounds being emitted from onstage whilst I'm playing - it makes more of a contribution to my sound than learning some of the more obscure scales.
 
Chris Fitzgerald has mentioned something about "very emotionally-strict" chord writers/Music teachers. I've agreed with him and posted an example.
Now, I must get into that professor's head and try to answer WHY that professor has "that kind of ideas", but...
I have never seen anything saying that viim7b5 is not valid in Jazz.
Maybe in his Jazz Harmony II?

I wouldn't presume to speak for the gentleman in question, but from the little blurbs posted, it seems he is saying that half diminished chords can not substitute for dominant function (in his class); they should be considered as minor function chords rather than dominant function.

There is a corollary in classical music where the viiØ7 chord is considered a "weak dominant function" and fully diminished (i.e. - vii07, as in minor) is considered a strong dominant function. Bach used both, but it's pretty clear on listening that the fully diminished has more of a resolution tendency than the Ø7.

Now, I would like to ask ALL of my TB members arguing with me - WHO IS NOT that Professor - provide any information about the "diminished function" chords.
I know about Tonic Functioning Chords, Subdominant Functioning Chords, Dominant Functioning Chords.

He may be talking about secondary viio7/X resolutions (i.e. - vii07/ii in C Major would be C#07, resolving to D minor, etc.). He may also be talking about the sorts of passing diminished found in Brazilian music, often found in Jobim, where a 07 chord can descend chromatically (a good example would be Jobim's "Wave", which begins DMa-->Abo7-->Gmi). Hard to tell from what is posted. The Brazilian descending passing diminished is a whole can of worms in theory, though! Not so bad when you are playing over it.
 
I have never seen anything saying that viim7b5 is not valid in Jazz.

Perhaps I am reading this comment too literally.
upload_2018-5-29_15-38-25.png

My understanding: viiø7 is essentially a dominant sub...so I don't agree with the comment in absolute terms. However, fair enough if the idea is to avoid the viiø7 to I resolution in composition because the sound is not considered sophisticated enough.

Perhaps the idea is to learn some useful rules, then learn to break them later.

:bag:
 
He has clearly indicate that in Major Key functions, that vii7b5 acts as a dominant chord without a Root.
In minor key functions, ii7b5 is a MINOR chord even though, it contains Tritone.

Let's look what Dan Haerle says.

Very nice! Mr Haerle's material is consistent with what I was taught and doesn't get my hackles up.

I appreciate the list of functions (especially 2. and 3.). IMHO, the passing chord and auxiliary function are especially helpful for analysis of many jazz standards and there are many examples to be found in the pages of my trusty Fifth Edition Real Book.
 

In reading Mr Pelletier-Bacquaert's page, I came across a section where he provides rules for subbing ø7 over various dominant 7 forms. This function is described as USING THE CHORD AS AN UPPER-STRUCTURE: Conceptually the alterations and extensions of the dominant chord determine where in the structure a ø7 can be inserted without modifying the original chord.
 
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i can still remember as a beginner wondering why the C major scale was the most fundamental of them all. The alphabet starts on A, not C. All the stuff I wanted to play was blues-based rock and it was vastly minor pentatonic. So for an ungodly number of years I was a pentatonic minor box wanker. I admit it. Oh, and I started on guitar not bass. I didn't need to know theory, all it would do is rob me of my 'style'. Oh, man, yes I was young and dumb. So freaking dumb.

when I finally woke up and smelled the coffee, I started with the C Major natural scale. I understand the idea behind the modes but still don't know their names as well as I should. My playing has gotten so much better and I want to keep improving.
 
Very nice! Mr Haerle's material is consistent with what I was taught and doesn't get my hackles up.

I appreciate the list of functions (especially 2. and 3.). IMHO, the passing chord and auxiliary function are especially helpful for analysis of many jazz standards and there are many examples to be found in the pages of my trusty Fifth Edition Real Book.

It's good to have a solid point of reference and add to your knowledge base as you learn different things and ideas.
 
N.B. I truly respect your opinion and your willingness to read, listen, analyze, and remain polite, diplomatically calm.:thumbsup:
Just a note from me.
All(!) my comments, postings at TB are for others(!) to read, to accept, to reject, to analyze, etc...
I don't have any youtube channel, any web-site, any facebook, any books to promote, etc...
My amateur comments - sometimes lame, sometimes idiotic, sometimes aggravating, sometimes too "progressive" are only(!) for those TB members who want to explore this or that subject of Music.
ONLY!
My postings about various Musical subjects are based on my aging "dilapidated" memories from my previous musician's life, mixed with my never-ending fascination with Music.
--------------------------------------------------

A very interesting collection of short essays about that m7b5 chord!

From here:
Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed, MM Music Composition, San Francisco Conservatory of Music
"Functioning as a half-diminished, though, this chord typically doesn't have a function on its own; it is commonly used as an upper structure with an A in the bass, forming a chromatically altered A7 chord (A7b13b9 to be precise). You'll note that A is also in the Bb melodic minor scale; in fact in jazz, it's common to treat the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale as the primary mode, called the "altered scale" or "diminished whole tone scale.The A7b13b9, as you might guess, tends to function as an altered dominant in D minor. If you again remove the A in the bass and look at the half-diminished seventh, you'll notice this leaves us with a ivø7, which is in neither the natural nor the melodic minor scale."

...
"The half-diminished seventh is a funny chord because its nature somehow tends to relax the pull of tonality. For instance, this same chord appears famously as a motto in Wagner's opera Tristan und Isolde.You'll notice the famous "Tristan chord" appears in the very first phrase. Here the F half-diminished seventh is functioning as a French augmented 6th chord resolving to V7 in A. The G# appoggiatura leading into the A of the French +6 is given so much emphasis compared to the A itself that we almost forget it could ever resolve. Then after it does, we never get the full cadence, as the V is left unresolved before we move to another key to repeat the same phrase. By the end of the first minute of the prelude, the entire audience knows exactly the pining for unconsummated love that Tristan and Isolde will feel for the entire opera! Wagner has conjured a brilliant bit of dramatic poetry, and the half-diminished seventh chord becomes the very symbol of this feeling."





"The half-diminished seventh is what 19th century theorist Simon Sechter would have called a zwitterklang — literally a hermaphroditic chord..."

Invalid Link Removed, Lecturer in Music Theory and Piano at California State University, Channel Islands

"Most commonly, the half-diminished seventh chord functions as a predominant, that is, a ii (supertonic chord) that comes before the dominant (V) which closes a progression in the minor mode. Most common is for the third of the chord to be in the bass.

any minor key: ii half-dim 6/5 - V7 - i

The half-diminished seventh chord can also function in the dominant area, preceding the dominant (V) in the major mode.

any major key: vii half-dim 7 - V7 - I

In the 19th-century, composers started to take the predominant directly to the tonic (plagal cadence), bypassing the dominant-tonic (V-I) convention because it began to feel too cliche and predictable. Its function is cadential, a sort of dominant-substitute although I wouldn't call it a dominant."


Invalid Link Removed, musician and teacher of music


"Diatonic vii7 chord in A flat major, functioning as a dominant area chord resolving to I

Diatonic ii7 chord in F minor, functioning as a pre-dominant area chord (some say subdominant area, same thing) about to go to V7.

Secondary vii half-diminished seventh chord, functioning as a vii7/x (some call it an incomplete V9/x), where x could be A flat major OR minor, so x could be a ii from major, III, iii, IV, iv, V, v, VI, vi, or VII in a major or a minor key. Notice I left out ii from a minor key, which doesn't get tonicised because it has a flat 5, and I also left out vii from a major key for the same reason. Go ahead and include ALL the minor key possibilities in the major keys as well (mode borrowing).

Secondary ii half-diminished seventh chord, functioning as the ii in a ii-V to a chord that is normally minor (so Fm in this case) OR to a major chord (F major)… oy, do I have to list all the keys where an F could happen?"


Much of this makes sense conceptually, but the application is way over my head as I struggle to think even in melodic or jazz minor...more exotic scales are beyond me. From these excellent examples, it should be clear there are lots of possible ways that diminished and half diminished chords may be used.

Perhaps you will enjoy exploring 16 bars of an old jazz standard (Night and Day).


/ D-7b5 / G7 / Cmaj7 / Cmaj7 / D-7b5 / G7 / Cmaj7 / Cmaj7 / F#-7b5 / Fmin7 / Emin7 / Ebdim7 / Dmin7 / G7 / Cmaj7 / Cmaj7 //

Here's my attempt to analyze.

The italicized section is a bit fun because the tune shifts between Cmin and Cmaj.
/ D-7b5 / G7 / Cmaj7 / Cmaj7 / D-7b5 / G7 / Cmaj7 / Cmaj7 /
The D-7b5 is clearly ii in C minor. G7 is V, but are we in major yet? I think it can work either way, but most people would probably consider the song firmly in C major here. Cmaj is definitely I

The section most relevant to this thread is in bold. I think of this section primarily in E minor, but although the notes are outlined pretty well, the tonality is not, so perhaps all four of these chords are really passing in nature.
/ F#-7b5 / Fmin7 / Emin7 / Ebdim7 /
F#-7b5 is ii and sets up a descending sequence in both the melody and harmony. I think it makes sense to our ears because you halfway expect to hear a G7 in the preceding bar. The Fmin7 chord is a passing chord, and I believe it functions as a iv in C minor. Emin7 is i. If you write the next chord Ebdim7 as D#dim7, you see it is #vii dim7 in E minor. To my ear, the sound of the descending sequence is similar to a ii V sequence using tritone subs.

The descending sequence lands/ends on the following bar on Dmin7.
/ Dmin7 / G7 / Cmaj7 / Cmaj7 //
From here the tune is firmly in C major... ii/V/I/I
 
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Another interesting statement about the Half-Diminished chord from Bert Ligon's, "Jazz Theory Resources."
A book recommended by one of our highly-educated TB members.
"Bert Ligon is director of jazz studies at the University of South Carolina. He received his Bachelor of Music and his Master of Music in jazz piano performance and arranging from the University of North Texas."

I don't think I have ever seen ø by itself. Although the logic is sound, I believe convention requires 7 chords to have a 7. If not, IMHO, an expert in how the mind processes symbols would likely argue for consistency. There are many levels of logic that should be considered. Unfortunately most people do not care to consider 2nd, 3rd, or 4th order effects.

I wish professor Ligon would not waste anyone's energy on such matters. ø7 and -7b5 are both clearly defined as equivalent. I prefer to read and write the former, but obviously the latter is easier to use with the computer. I believe most people prefer whichever symbol they learned first...that is the basis of my preference.
 
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