Most Important Scale (as per Scott's Bass Lessons)

[Wasnex]

From "Functional Jazz Guitar" by Ed Byrne.

More from the same book.
About harmonic cliches

Thanks for the examples. Hard to remember, but we may have discussed this in school. Although I see the logic for why the 7 is redundant, I am not convince it does not make the cognitive process easier if it is there...but perhaps this is just because I am so used to seeing it. Have you seen it in actual lead sheets?

 

[Wasnex]

Yes Cmaj is I. Dmin7b5 as Fmin6, or as some Ab from C minor as I???
Like C minor switching to C major?
That Blues-ish D# (Eb) in the melody before E with G7or G7(#5, maybe even #11 ) - F E D# and E.

If I am walking the G7 and want to infer that is is borrowed from the parallel minor, (IMHO) the safe bet is to use the b9. It's a bit more challenging to work in the Eb in this particular song, but I think it can work. The Eb, of course, is enharmonic to #5, but in my view #5 implies an altered chord, rather than the bass player getting perhaps too creative.

Here is what I think about that part with my amateur ears.
While the melody remains on E, I hear a harmonic movement from C major to A minoreyebrow, but...
F#min7b5 in first inversion could be seen as Amin6 (or F#m7b5), with the next chromatic (passing) chord of Ab(or Fmin7), going to G (or Em), and some "relative" of D7(9) (or Edim7), etc...

If I were a teenager in Music school, I would think, "Hey, look at that strange Tritone-like bass jump from C to F#, with next "Tritonic" chord of Ab before G..."
And my harmony teacher would say something diplomatically in order not to offend me, "Wow, maybe one day you'll develop some new theory..."

Currently, I would just play the chords and have fun without too much thinking, plus, I don't solo.

By putting the F#min7b5 in the key of A minor I believe this implies G# is diatonic. IMHO, G# can sound nice in an improvised melody and anticipates the Ab in the following bar. As there is disagreement on these four bars, even among prestigious academics, perhaps it would be good to discuss ideas with band mates so everyone is on the same page...but like you, usually we just play.

IMHO the genius of these four bars is they trick the ears in many ways by pulling a few choice tones through chords to guide the ears. Perhaps the genius is that not everyone hears the same guide tones. With your implied key centers, G# leads to Ab. With mine G leads to G.

If I understand correctly, this specific harmonic sequence is not uncommon.

One of my music theory professors liked to give me some obvious double handed comments back in the day. I remember him evaluating one of my assignments: "Ah you think of harmony like a bass player"...meant as an obvious slur. I am sure his opinion of my theory knowledge would not be much improved...luckily my job was more performance oriented, so my rudimentary skills exceeded minimum requirements...success required that I learn a few things that he did not teach me in a formal classical theory setting.

Surely you use your knowledge to improvise...even if you're just walking a line, you need to know the key to choose passing tones.

 

[Wasnex]

Instead of G7 let’s try the following chord:
Left piano hand - G F
Right piano - B Db Eb G as G7(b5)(b13).

I'll have to take your word that voicing sounds nice as I don't have a piano, keyboard, or even a functional sequencer any more. My intuition tells me, "That's a lot of 'color'," in the right hand," but I would trust my ears.

I think I would be more inclined to play the flat nine over the G7. Perhaps starting on open G: G|Ab|G/D|B Note: interpret G/D as triplet feel.

The suggested G7(b5)(b13) seems to suggest hole tone movement...again my ears might tell me something else.

 

[Wasnex]

Instead of G7 let’s try the following chord:
Left piano hand - G F
Right piano - B Db Eb F

Never trust somebody else’s ears!

Do you prefer Eb or E natural with the first Dmi7b5 chord?

I believe years ago I probably would have played E natural, but as I become slightly aware up the upper chord extensions I developed a taste for what I see as essentially diatonic b9s. In this case, I see D-7b5 as borrowed ii from C min, so Eb or (b9) I believe is appropriate. What are your thoughts?

Course there is this. In How Insensitive, starting on bar 13 we see: | E-7b5 | A7b9 | D-7 |. The harmony seems clearly ii, V, i in D minor; yet the melody over the E-7b5 (ii) includes F#. IMHO, F natural in the melody would sound very wrong here. Maybe you can illuminate some of the magic that eludes me.

So the question is when does b9 probably not belong with a -7b5 ? My guess: When a chord functions as #vi-7b5 in jazz/melodic minor, a major 9 is appropriate. Of course I had to consult my notes for the exception. Do you agree? Perhaps we could consider the E-7b5 borrowed #vi from G minor...the shape of the melody certainly suggests that, but the idea seems a bit of a reach to me.

I am pretty sure your ears, tastes, and knowledge are far more sophisticated than mine . I might be a better audio tech though, so I do trust my ears.

 

[Rev. Cornelius]

Or maybe practice the natural minor but name the scale after the third note.

@mambo4 I see you have a link to the 2005 Basic Theory pdf. Do you have the intermediate theory pdf?

Thanks

 

[Wasnex]

Let's take the last G7 chord (after F#...F...E...Eb...Dmin).
I would play two chords (different tensions) in that bar:
Left hand: G - F (1 - b7)
Right hand: A - B natural - E natural as 9(!) - 3 - 13(!),
moving to
Right hand: B natural - Db -- Eb - G as 3 - b5 - b13,
Or
A natural(!) - Db - Eb - G to Cmaj7.
and resolving into that beautiful Cmaj7.

I see the turn around squarely in C maj, so yes I would prefer a maj 9 with the V.

Unfortunately, I have forgotten what little I learned about altered harmony, but again here the notes suggest whole tone movement in the bass. Easy enough for me to figure out a part when the chords are written out, but I wouldn't say I was competent enough to react on the fly when comping...perhaps I was close at one time as I do remember starting to hear and pay more attention to altered 11s and 13s.

 

[bearfoot]

"functional" harmony was , as I recall from the college, also called "leading tone" harmony.

So while the Mixolydian mode is probably equally, or more popular, than Major in various popular music forms (especially rock), it doesn't have a leading tone which is so central to complex harmony.

I'm not sure of Scott's reasoning, but it could be argued that Western harmony = "ti".

 

[mambo4]

@mambo4 I see you have a link to the 2005 Basic Theory pdf. Do you have the intermediate theory pdf?

Thanks

The original sticky thread the pdf came from has freshly updated links for basic, intermediate and advanced in post#1

 

[Wasnex]

Let's take the last G7 chord (after F#...F...E...Eb...Dmin).
I would play two chords (different tensions) in that bar:
Left hand: G - F (1 - b7)
Right hand: A - B natural - E natural as 9(!) - 3 - 13(!),
moving to
Right hand: B natural - Db -- Eb - G as 3 - b5 - b13,
Or
A natural(!) - Db - Eb - G to Cmaj7.
and resolving into that beautiful Cmaj7.

So how would you approach crafting a medium swing bass line when the harmony is altered to G7b5b13. And do you think differently if, instead, you consider the intervals #11, #5 as suggested in post #101...my suspicion: this is like the difference between ø and -7b5, but I want to make sure were not talking apples and turnips.

 

[SteveCS]

I wonder where the dialog might have gone had the OP actually asked about m7b5...

 

[inanimate_carb]

I wonder where the dialog might have gone had the OP actually asked about m7b5...

The only answer to this question is “anything BUT m7b5 chords” ....

 

[inanimate_carb]

As you can see how much the others do not accept a polite, social conversation of some of us.
There are numerous threads popping up all over the TB forum. I don’t like - I don’t read, I do Not moderate, etc...

There’s other forums if you don’t like it here. Your constant use of pirated copywritten material without permission from its respective authors is also markedly disrespectful, even if the moderators here have no problem with it.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Your constant use of pirated copywritten material without permission from its respective authors is also markedly disrespectful, even if the moderators here have no problem with it.

After extensive discussion, some of it recent, we have decided to go by a fairly simple an open definition of "fair use", and example of which can be found in this article. When in doubt, we review the instance in question in the reports forum and decide on a course of action. The one place where we tend to automatically rule in favor of "remove the content" is where the actor of copyrighted material requests that it be removed. It's about the best we can hope to do in our circumstances.

As for the rest, the ignore feature is actually way more useful than it used to be in the past. I have several members on ignore, and their posts and quotes of same no longer appear in threads I am following that they reply to. Instead, there is a single "show ignored content" link at the bottom of threads in which they appear. Much improved, and highly recommended.

 

[Wasnex]

I wonder where the dialog might have gone had the OP actually asked about m7b5...

The only answer to this question is “anything BUT m7b5 chords” ....

If your really curious you can easily review the recent thread on how to approach the -7b5 chord. @Whousedtoplay and I both participated in that thread as well.

Ironically neither of your posts contribute to the OP's inquiry, but they are quite effective at stifling conversation and learning.

@Whousedtoplay I appreciate you taking the time share your ideas and I apologize for leading you down this apparently offensive and forbidden path of discussion with what I considered a logical line of inquiry that unfortunately led away from original topic. Of course sidetopics never emerge on TalkBass.

Thread unwatched .

 

[JRA]

Instead of G7 let’s try the following chord:
Left piano hand - G F
Right piano - B Db Eb G as G7(b5)(b13).

Instead of G7 let’s try the following chord:
Left piano hand - G F
Right piano - B Db Eb F

Never trust somebody else’s ears!

it's entertaining...it's not important!

out in the wild, gigging/sessions: i've been handed all sorts of manuscript and symbols from which i was able to glean the note which will work right now, at this fleeting moment in time, so help me god, may all of the composers rest in pieces for such goofy variants as are seen. big whup!

on the half diminished thing = some cats assume that the 7 is 'implied' with the symbol. they told me = so it was true...they paid me...great day!

but i thank you anyway, for the great read, Whousedtoplay , Wasnex , Mushroo , MalcolmAmos , Spin Doctor , Chris Fitzgerald , SteveCS , and all of the rest of you. i'm as impressed as i am whelmed.

sorry for destroying such an interesting topic, Is C major scale the most important scale

probably!
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depends on the gig! polka bands without horns play a lot of stuff in C.

 

[SteveCS]

....

Ironically neither of your posts contribute to the OP's inquiry, but they are quite effective at stifling conversation and learning.

...

I've made hundreds of positive, informative and correct contributiins to threads of this type over the years, often pointing out misinformation posted by others that continues to be churned out by the same posters even in these recent threads. You say you want to learn - that's great, but in a thread about the major scale where the first reply contains a list of modes and within a page there is a debate on how many key signatures there are...

 

[Wasnex]

I've made hundreds of positive, informative and correct contributiins to threads of this type over the years, often pointing out misinformation posted by others that continues to be churned out by the same posters even in these recent threads. You say you want to learn - that's great, but in a thread about the major scale where the first reply contains a list of modes and within a page there is a debate on how many key signatures there are...

I agree. You have made lots of great contributions. However, this was not a thread about the major scale and your latest responses are not helping the thread move forward or get back on track.

I for one think the OP has been sufficiently answered and have no interest in exploring the topic further...We were having an interesting and informative discussion about the application of music theory. Now we have a dead thread with hurt feelings.

When I don't like the direction a thread is moving in, I just unwatch it instead of making snarky comments.