Most Important Scale (as per Scott's Bass Lessons)

[Spin Doctor]

I guess I just wanted y'all's thoughts on instead of basing around the natural major scale, basing around the natural minor scale (aeolian mode), learning that super well and then exploring the modes from that.

Since the vast majority of songs are in a major keys, I can't think of one good reason to do this. Also, as has been mentioned, "major" is the universal reference point. What could you gain by changing that?

So would it be a bad idea for me to just go hard into the natural minor scale as like the parent of everything else?

Nothing wrong with really getting into how scales work, but if you try to confuse the issue right off the bat, I think you are making the journey more difficult for no reason. I mean, since the minor keys are NOT the parent of everything else. (generally speaking) However, you can choose to look at scales any way you want, since everything is relative to everything else.

 

[Schlyder]

There are 12 major keys and 12 minor keys. These 24 keys are the foundational building blocks of Western music. Every competent musician should be fluent in all 24. Learning just 12 of the 24 gives you only half the picture.

Major keys are usually taught before minor keys for a variety of reasons. One of the most significant reasons for teaching them in this order is that major-key tonal harmony can be simpler to teach than minor-key tonal harmony. In order to really understand minor keys, you need to know natural minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor, altered dominant chords, etc. which can be overwhelming if you don't already have a firm grasp of major key music theory.

A more basic reason to learn major scales first is that all scales are defined in relation to the major scale, or in other words, the major scale is "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8." For example the natural minor scale is spelled "1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8" because its 3rd, 6th, and 7th degrees are a half step lower compared to the corresponding notes of the major scale.

It sounds like you are proposing to define the natural minor scale as "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8" and then define other scales in relation, so for example the major scale is "1 2 #3 4 5 #6 #7 8" because its 3rd, 6th, and 7th degrees are a half step higher than the corresponding notes of the minor scale? If so, that's just plain flat-out wrong! If you choose this path, you'll be confused by any music theory book, video, lesson, or website you try to learn from in the future, plus you will have a hard time verbally communicating your musical ideas to other musicians.

30 keys. 15 major keys and 15 minor keys .. C has no # or b + 7 # keys + 7 b keys = 15

 

[mambo4]

The Illusion that one scale is just as "good" as the other is caused in part by only thinking in terms of playing scales.
For the purposes of fingerboard familiarity it is partly true.

True fingerboard familiarity is
1.) knowing where every instance of every note is and how to play it
2.) understanding how each note relates to the phrase/song/chord you are playing

for the purposes of learning 1.), it is possible that any scale is as good as any other
but for learning 2.) it is the major scale, no contest.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

..... True fingerboard familiarity is
1.) knowing where every instance of every note is and how to play it
2.) understanding how each note relates to the phrase/song/chord you are playing

for the purposes of learning 1.), it is possible that any scale is as good as any other
but for learning 2.) it is the major scale, no contest.

You are on your root note where is the note or chord spelling you need next? From your root the.......

• 2 is same string and toward the bridge two frets. Always......
• 3 is up a string and back a fret. The b3 is right after the 2 which is on the same string as the root. Always.....
• 4 is up a string same fret. Always....
• 5 is up a string and toward the bridge two frets, or one string down same fret as the root. The rest are also always.....
• 6 is up two strings and back a fret. Right over the 3. The 3, note or chord and the vi, note or chord like to go with each other, kinda neat they are over each other. When you see one the other is not far away. The b6 is right after the 5 -- plus one fret toward the bridge.
• 7 is up two strings and over one fret toward the bridge. The b7 is above the 4 one string up.
• 8 is up two strings and over two frets toward the bridge.
• Get that and then go into the 9m 11 and 13,
• Your major scale box and what I've listed above will let the fret board reveal anything you need.

Yes it's like this over the entire fretboard. Yes its patterns, but, you have to start somewhere. Yes it's based upon the major scale as is most of the instructional books, video, etc.

Which ever way you end up going - good luck.

 

[Mushroo]

30 keys. 15 major keys and 15 minor keys .. C has no # or b + 7 # keys + 7 b keys = 15

This is kind-of sort-of half-true.

There are 12 distinct pitches in the musical alphabet of Western music, giving us 12 notes in the chromatic scale. This is why I said "12 major and 12 minor keys, for a total of 24." If you are a "by ear" player this is easy to hear, or if you are a "visual-pattern" learner, you can see that the notes on your bass fretboard repeat themselves if you go up 12 frets.

What you are talking about is "enharmonics," which is a fancy word for "notated differently, but sounds the same." For example, F# major (6 sharps) is notated differently from Gb major (6 flats) but they sound exactly the same.

Theoretically, if you include all of the enharmonic possibilities, there are at least 72 hypothetical key signatures (36 major and 36 minor) because each of the 12 pitches of the chromatic scale (or "musical alphabet") can be notated enharmonically in at least 3 different ways. For example, the key of C major could also be written as B# major or Dbb major.

Even though there are 36 possible enharmonic major keys, we often see the number 15 in beginner music textbooks. Why? Where does that number 15 come from? Is there something magical about the enharmonic keys of C#/Db, F#/Gb, and B/Cb? Do these 3 keys (or 6 keys, depending on your point of view) have special qualities that the other 9 keys do not?

The answer is that C#/Db, F#/Gb, and B/Cb are the only key signatures that can be written without resorting to double-flat or double-sharp symbols. For example, the key of Ab could certainly also be written enharmonically as G#, but that would require an F## (double sharp), or the key of E could be written as Fb, but that would require a Bbb (double flat). Since beginners haven't learned double flats and double sharps yet, many teachers/authors prefer the simplicity of saying "there are 15 key signatures" rather than open the can of worms "there are 12 key signatures, each of which can be written enharmonically in multiple ways, however in practice we traditionally avoid enharmonic key signatures that would require double sharps or double flats." This is an historical accident of our flawed notation system (i.e. piano black keys vs. white keys), and has no audible reality in how our ear perceives the music.

Check out "The Well-Tempered Clavier" by J.S. Bach for a great lesson in how to write music in all 24 keys.

 

[BAG]

The b6 is next to the 5, but, toward the nut one fret.

I know what you meant to say here (and you've probably forgotten more theory than I even know so I may still be wrong) but if you're at the 5 and go toward the nut one fret you're at a b5.

Should it read more like "the b6 is toward the nut one fret, right next to the five"

 

[BAG]

Take Scott's advice verbatim and work on it exactly as he says - he knows his stuff.

And yet he can be confusing at times.
When I was trying to get into his lessons, on one particular one I was doing he would say "C chord" and proceed to play the notes of the C chord but would include the b7 as well. When i wrote in to query this, one of his staff replied along the lines of "Most of Scott's music is based on jazz and just about every chord is a dominant seventh so he naturally includes it when playing those chords without saying so"

Very confusing at the time to someone who knew enough to know what notes made up a C chord but then started wondering if I in fact knew anything at all.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Where does that number 15 come from? Is there something magical about the enharmonic keys of C#/Db, F#/Gb, and B/Cb?

You stop listing flats and sharps at 7 on the grand staff. Of course you can number them into infinity, but what sense does that make? Just pick a point and call it done. So that's why we say 15 major and minor keys.

I can see many hairs being split over this...

 

[Schlyder]

This is kind-of sort-of half-true.

There are 12 distinct pitches in the musical alphabet of Western music, giving us 12 notes in the chromatic scale. This is why I said "12 major and 12 minor keys, for a total of 24." If you are a "by ear" player this is easy to hear, or if you are a "visual-pattern" learner, you can see that the notes on your bass fretboard repeat themselves if you go up 12 frets.

What you are talking about is "enharmonics," which is a fancy word for "notated differently, but sounds the same." For example, F# major (6 sharps) is notated differently from Gb major (6 flats) but they sound exactly the same.

Theoretically, if you include all of the enharmonic possibilities, there are at least 72 hypothetical key signatures (36 major and 36 minor) because each of the 12 pitches of the chromatic scale (or "musical alphabet") can be notated enharmonically in at least 3 different ways. For example, the key of C major could also be written as B# major or Dbb major.

Even though there are 36 possible enharmonic major keys, we often see the number 15 in beginner music textbooks. Why? Where does that number 15 come from? Is there something magical about the enharmonic keys of C#/Db, F#/Gb, and B/Cb? Do these 3 keys (or 6 keys, depending on your point of view) have special qualities that the other 9 keys do not?

The answer is that C#/Db, F#/Gb, and B/Cb are the only key signatures that can be written without resorting to double-flat or double-sharp symbols. For example, the key of Ab could certainly also be written enharmonically as G#, but that would require an F## (double sharp), or the key of E could be written as Fb, but that would require a Bbb (double flat). Since beginners haven't learned double flats and double sharps yet, many teachers/authors prefer the simplicity of saying "there are 15 key signatures" rather than open the can of worms "there are 12 key signatures, each of which can be written enharmonically in multiple ways, however in practice we traditionally avoid enharmonic key signatures that would require double sharps or double flats." This is an historical accident of our flawed notation system (i.e. piano black keys vs. white keys), and has no audible reality in how our ear perceives the music.

Check out "The Well-Tempered Clavier" by J.S. Bach for a great lesson in how to write music in all 24 keys.

Yes I was just being pendantic. But I have had to use those enharmonic keys before, reading stuff in the Simandl book, and some other classical stuff I have. So I have to default to how many keys that I can normally encounter, for my reading purposes, which is 30.
I have rarely encountered anything in double flat or double sharp keys, although I have seen it before. But they are impractical for the most part. Sonically it is much simpler at 24, but we have to deal with the written aspect, which complicates it. LOL

 

[Spin Doctor]

Yes I was just being pendantic.

Well... Pedantic or not, this guy agrees with you. A good bit of this vid is specifically about the number of keys. I think people try to make this stuff way too complicated for no good reason at all. The vast majority of music theory involves a little 1st grade math, a little rote memorization, and that's pretty much it.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

I know what you meant to say here (and you've probably forgotten more theory than I even know so I may still be wrong) but if you're at the 5 and go toward the nut one fret you're at a b5.

Should it read more like "the b6 is toward the nut one fret, right next to the five"

My bad, I've changed it to read the b6 is right after the 5 - plus one fret toward the bridge.

Thanks

 

[Spin Doctor]

My bad, I've changed it to read the b6 is right after the 5 plus one fret toward the nut.

Thanks

Hang on... Neither one of you is right. If you want to say it that way, say "the b5 is one fret toward the nut, next to the 5th." You both keep saying the same wrong thing over and over, lol.

The b6 is the same as a #5 which would be one fret toward the bridge.

 

[Mushroo]

You stop listing flats and sharps at 7 on the grand staff. Of course you can number them into infinity, but what sense does that make? Just pick a point and call it done. So that's why we say 15 major and minor keys.

I can see many hairs being split over this...

How's this for a splitting-hairs definition: Western music is based on a system of 12 tones, and therefore, there are 12 sonically distinct major keys (one for each pitch of the chromatic scale). Taking into account enharmonic spellings, there are 15 key signatures in common use to notate these 12 keys. Other enharmonic key signatures exist in theory but are seldom used, because double-flat/double-sharp notation is cumbersome in practice.

 

[Spin Doctor]

How's this for a splitting-hairs definition: Western music is based on a system of 12 tones, and therefore, there are 12 sonically distinct major keys (one for each pitch of the chromatic scale). Taking into account enharmonic spellings, there are 15 key signatures in common use to notate these 12 keys. Other enharmonic key signatures exist in theory but are seldom used, because double-flat/double-sharp notation is cumbersome in practice.

Sounds like an accurate definition. Not much more you can say about it, as far as I can see.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

.......I've seen several replies that it's all the same notes. That's true but feel and phrasing are way different. For me, the longer I spent in minor, the harder major became to play. Ymmv, Have fun!

Yes the C major scale will use the three major chords as building blocks for harmony, i.e. C F G
And C's relative minor (Am) will use those same notes, but, with the three minor chords as harmony building blocks. i.e. Am Dm Em.

The major or minor sound comes from both the notes and the chords being played under them. We often forget about the harmonizing chords and what they bring to the table.

Recapping:
C major key is C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bm7b5.
Using the notes of a C major scale with the C-F-G chords under them gives a major sound.
Using those same notes found in C major, but, this time with Am-Dm-Em under them gives a minor sound. The tonal center shifts from C to Am. Same notes and same chords in both, however, how we play them dictates the major or minor sound.

Happy trails.

 

[dreamadream99]

Sounds like an accurate definition. Not much more you can say about it, as far as I can see.

As if.

 

[Spin Doctor]

As if.

Something you wanna say?

 

[Wasnex]

There are 12 major keys and 12 minor keys. These 24 keys are the foundational building blocks of Western music. Every competent musician should be fluent in all 24. Learning just 12 of the 24 gives you only half the picture.

Major keys are usually taught before minor keys for a variety of reasons. One of the most significant reasons for teaching them in this order is that major-key tonal harmony can be simpler to teach than minor-key tonal harmony. In order to really understand minor keys, you need to know natural minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor, altered dominant chords, etc. which can be overwhelming if you don't already have a firm grasp of major key music theory.

A more basic reason to learn major scales first is that all scales are defined in relation to the major scale, or in other words, the major scale is "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8." For example the natural minor scale is spelled "1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8" because its 3rd, 6th, and 7th degrees are a half step lower compared to the corresponding notes of the major scale.

It sounds like you are proposing to define the natural minor scale as "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8" and then define other scales in relation, so for example the major scale is "1 2 #3 4 5 #6 #7 8" because its 3rd, 6th, and 7th degrees are a half step higher than the corresponding notes of the minor scale? If so, that's just plain flat-out wrong! If you choose this path, you'll be confused by any music theory book, video, lesson, or website you try to learn from in the future, plus you will have a hard time verbally communicating your musical ideas to other musicians.

I agree with the idea of being fluent in all major and minor keys. I don't follow all of your logic. Consider the major and minor keys with no sharps and flats: the fact the minor key starts on "A" and the major key starts on "C" kind of blows much of your logic apart.

Also a minor 3rd is not by definition necessarily a b3. For example in C major, E flat is both a b3 and a minor 3rd. However in A minor, C natural is simply a minor third...as it is diatonic to the key it is not flat.

IMHO explaining natural minor as "1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8" in relation to major is fine. Explaining major as "1 2 #3 4 5 #6 #7 8" in relation to natural minor is every bit as valid. I believe my school discussed these relationships during theory lectures, but the preferred terminology for intervals of 2, 3, 6, 7 was major or minor...plus I believe we covered augmented 6 and diminished 7. Explore how you come to the diminished 7 chord in A minor and it should make sense why b7 is not preferred: in the key of A minor G# B D F...note the 7th of the chord is not flat, the root is sharp, and the interval is a diminished 7th.

 

[dreamadream99]

As if.

I was agreeing with you. There wasn't anything else to add. But knowing TalkBass, even after a question is answered, there will yet be another 10 pages of misinformation, and sketchy theory.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I was agreeing with you. There wasn't anything else to add. But knowing TalkBass, even after a question is answered, there will yet be another 10 pages of misinformation, and sketchy theory.

Yeah, and speaking of the sketchy theory, as much as I was at odds with Jeff Berlin, he was absolutely right about one thing. Electric Bassists need to start getting musical education, like people do on any other conventional instrument. Some of the stuff that's passed off as music theory around here is sometimes truly head scratching in a kinda way.