Double Bass Moving the left hand - convincing a school teacher

[Steve Freides]

Hi, folks. I teach what I consider to be the standard technique of allowing the fingers to support each other, and am having a bit of a conflict with a student's orchestra teacher (middle school) who wants him to keep his hand in position and stretch out his fingers.

I took the liberty of quoting a few paragraphs from the intro to Simandl. If people anyone has links to YouTube videos that show this playing technique clearly, I'd be interested in knowing about them.

Many thanks in advance.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

Here's the part of Simandl to which I was referring:

"In pressing down a string with the first finger, the remaining unemployed three fingers must be slightly raised; but while playing with the second, the first finger must remain upon the string and assist the second in presisng it against the finger-board. In a like manner the third finger must be supported by the first and second and the fourth by the first, second, and third."

I'd also be curious to know how many of you actually teach or were taught this way. From a quick look around YouTube, I don't see this as much as I thought I would.

Thanks in advance.

-S-

 

[Tom Gale]

Here's the part of Simandl to which I was referring:

"In pressing down a string with the first finger, the remaining unemployed three fingers must be slightly raised; but while playing with the second, the first finger must remain upon the string and assist the second in presisng it against the finger-board. In a like manner the third finger must be supported by the first and second and the fourth by the first, second, and third."

I'd also be curious to know how many of you actually teach or were taught this way. From a quick look around YouTube, I don't see this as much as I thought I would.

Thanks in advance.

-S-

This is a strategy left over from the old Simandl days of yore when the gut G&Ds had to be far off the fingerboard to prevent that dreaded 'buzz'. All of that went out of date with the modern metal strong which allows the strings to be much closer to the fingerboard and takes the strain off the left hand and thusly allows you much better left hand choices such as 'open hand' technique and the use of the thumb even below the octave. Simandl was great in its day but that day is LONG gone.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

 

[MartinBorgen]

Does he play better that way or something?

 

[neilG]

I was taught that way, and play that way. Very nicely, thank you. The basic Simandl technique is sound, maybe not for the reasons originally intended, like string height. Why wouldn't you want to take even a little strain or tension off a finger by letting the fingers behind it rest on the string?

 

[Tom Gale]

I was taught that way, and play that way. Very nicely, thank you. The basic Simandl technique is sound, maybe not for the reasons originally intended, like string height. Why wouldn't you want to take even a little strain or tension off a finger by letting the fingers behind it rest on the string?

To the doubters, try a great, full vibrato with the 2nd finger. What are the other fingers doing????
TG

 

[eerbrev]

In terms of your disgareement with your student's orchestra teacher, well, in my opinion, i think that the orchestra teacher is overstretching their boundaries a bit, even if they are just trying to help (which I believe they are). On the other hand, if your student wants to try other methods (not that I am saying that's what's going on here), you should also be supportive. the day you stop learning and moving forward is the day you begin to regress.

Even if you or your student try something for a while and decide you don't like it or that it's unhealthy for your hands, it's not as if it's the end of the world. Get messy, make mistakes, as the Magic School Bus says.

As an aside, on the topic of "open hand", i find I keep a more contained, dense hand in using "open hand", because I don't keep my hands in a static position over top of notes I'm not using. My hand, at times, can almost like like I'm using the Fisticuffs technique.

Best of luck to you and your student, and I hope that this disagreement gets solved in a positive way.

eerbrev

 

[Tom Gale]

My hand, at times, can almost like like I'm using the Fisticuffs technique.

eerbrev[/QUOTE]

What's that?
TG

 

[Steve Freides]

I was taught that way, and play that way. Very nicely, thank you. The basic Simandl technique is sound, maybe not for the reasons originally intended, like string height. Why wouldn't you want to take even a little strain or tension off a finger by letting the fingers behind it rest on the string?

Me, too. I came to double bass as a guitar player, and all those fingers helping seems like a great idea to me.

Not for nothing, I now incorporate this in my guitar teaching, too. I teach one finger per fret, but for beginners, I encourage the hand to move for each note as much as needed. I find that not doing this often results in a lot of unnecessary tension in the hand.

-S-

 

[eerbrev]

What's that?
TG

Pre-simandl. using all the fingers in a singular block, moving for every note. I heard that they would also use a glove to help with really rough gut strings, but I've only heard it from one source, so i can neither confirm nor deny.

basically what I'm getting at is that i don't stretch my hand out, even over the full tone of the simandl position, if I don't have to. I also use 1-3 and 2-4 for semitones, so a one octave C scale would be played 3-0-1-3-0-1-2-4, the argument that pursuaded me to do so being that a semitone in a relaxed hand lies somewhere between 2 and 3.

sorry for the thread hijack.

eerbrev

 

[neilG]

To the doubters, try a great, full vibrato with the 2nd finger. What are the other fingers doing????
TG

Bunched up around my second finger, most likely. Depends on how long the note is, and on what string, and what comes next, or what came before. Not sure what your point is.

 

[Steve Freides]

basically what I'm getting at is that i don't stretch my hand out, even over the full tone of the simandl position, if I don't have to.

That's my approach also. On the guitar, I often do a simple finger exercise of 1-2-3-4 on every string; when I do it slowly, my hand stays "bunched" on every note, and as I play faster and faster, my hand moves less and my fingers stretch out more. I find this approach helps keep the left hand as relaxed as possible while still getting the job done, and I incorporate this principle into not only my guitar, double bass,and electric bass teaching, but into my piano playing and teaching as well. You can see it in the piano playing of some of the greats, e.g., Horowitz, who often plays with the "correct" technique of rounded fingers in rapid passages, and otherwise plays with flat fingers. The details are different, but the principle is the same.

-S-

 

[Tom Gale]

Bunched up around my second finger, most likely. Depends on how long the note is, and on what string, and what comes next, or what came before. Not sure what your point is.

My point is the first finger is not in place holding down the string as it would be if you followed Simandl's directions.

TG

 

[Steve Freides]

My point is the first finger is not in place holding down the string as it would be if you followed Simandl's directions.

Tom, you're correct on this point, of course, but I've never taken that part of Simandl literally. I think exactly _how_ the fingers support one another is going to vary by the person. The point is to allow it to happen, and not to create unneeded tension in the left hand. I have seen, e.g., people using the second finger in support of the first, even though Simandl doesn't say you should do that - but to me it's a continuation of the same line of thinking.

-S-

 

[drurb]

Far be it from me to do anything close to argue the point with folks here who have far more expertise. I'd like to share what a fine teacher once taught me regarding all of this. His philosophy was that if one can play in tune with fine technique and sound good, he really didn't care what was going on. He followed that up with his strong belief that by learning and using what is commonly considered good technique, one would maximize efficiency of strength and movement and reach one's goal faster. So, he taught that the left hand should be kept stretched out in position over the string with the ultimate goal being that the fingers work like efficient mechanical hammers. He considered the bunching and unbunching of the left hand as wasted energy that would also make good intonation less probable as one "reached" for the new note by stretching out the fingers within a given position. I think he was right. In my opinion, that's what students should be taught.

Then there is the higher level. Sure, vibrato with second finger? Well, my first finger sure isn't down on the string. Players with great expertise modify these "rules" all the time in service of the art of making music. Their results speak for themselves. Teaching a beginner, however, is, in my humble opinion, a different matter.

Returning to that teacher... part of his message of efficiency of the left hand was the employment of "cello" fingering (1-2-3-4) at and past the heel of the neck (I can't recall what Simandl position number that is). So, in that regard he departed from the traditional Simadl.

 

[robobass]

...
"In pressing down a string with the first finger, the remaining unemployed three fingers must be slightly raised; but while playing with the second, the first finger must remain upon the string and assist the second in presisng it against the finger-board. In a like manner the third finger must be supported by the first and second and the fourth by the first, second, and third."...
-S-

That's interesting. I thought Simandl totally excluded the third finger in neck positions.

As far as the overall question, I was taught (and use and teach) the basic Simandl theme described above. I do lift my first finger when vibrating with my second, but mostly keep two (or at least three) down when vibrating on four. I do use third finger, extensions, thumb below octave, etc. when advantageous, but still consider myself a Simandl guy.

As for teaching, even though we have better strings and lower action, it's still pretty hard for novice students to get the strong sound which comes from solid FB contact. Also I really think that while it may be a bit pedantic and outdated, the simple and defined structure of Simandl technique is a much better route to getting solid intonation (and sightreading proficiency, for that matter) in the neck positions than introducing extended positions and third finger too early.

Steve, I am on board with "the standard technique of allowing the fingers to support each other" and think that the orchestra teacher is out of line by interfering. What are his bass qualifications?

 

[drurb]

^^^^^^^Precisely!

 

[longfinger]

Hi, folks. I teach what I consider to be the standard technique of allowing the fingers to support each other, and am having a bit of a conflict with a student's orchestra teacher (middle school) who wants him to keep his hand in position and stretch out his fingers.



-S-

Just because the fingers are in spaced out, in position to play notes, does not necessarily mean that the fingers on the nut side of the stop are not supporting the stopping finger. They are just not as close to the stopped note. In your quote of Simandl in post 2, it's not actually stated whether the fingers stay in position and press down, or move closer to the stopping finger and press down.


These don't seem to be exclusive techniques. One of my teachers told me that when we have mechanical technique choices like this always go by sound. Having fingers in position would likely sound better when playing different notes quickly, where finger pre-placement helps a lot. Having many fingers bunched up to play one note, can sound better on the fatter strings near the nut when one wants to really "milk" a note for all it's worth timbre-wise with as high a string amplitude as possible, for long durations. Do what sounds best.

 

[drurb]

...In your quote of Simandl in post 2, it's not actually stated whether the fingers stay in position and press down, or move closer to the stopping finger and press down.

Your fine advice notwithstanding, in the Simandl technique, it really is the case that the fingers do stay in position. As you point out, there are times when it may make artistic sense not to do that.

 

[Steve Freides]

Teaching a beginner, however is, in my humble opinion, a different matter.

Yes, that's a very important point. I teach a lot of beginners and, IMHO, that's the hardest kind of teaching. For students who aren't going on to a career in music, that first teacher is the most important as well.

The secondary issue here, which I guess is actually the primary issue in my case, isn't one of technique but rather of the role of the private teacher and the ensemble teacher in this situation. While I agree that there is more than one way to play well, for a student who's in the 7th grade, getting conflicting advice serves only to confuse and to hinder progress.

I screwed up by quoting Simandl to the school teacher - my bad. I was trying to be helpful and all I did was offend, it seems. That said, however, I feel strongly that a student's primary teacher ought to be just that, the person who teaches them, and that ensemble directors ought to defer to private teachers.

The waters get murky because some of the school children have private teachers while others don't - the latter group see the ensemble conductor as their teacher since they have a regular group lesson on their parts with them, and I guess I shouldn't be too surprised when the ensemble directors see themselves as primary teachers - they are for some kids, but they shouldn't be for someone who takes private lessons outside of school.

I think the right solution in this case is simply going to be for me to walk away from this student and let them find another private teacher, one who happens to go about bass teaching in a way that's more compatible with the school conductor. I don't think that's what _ought_ to be happening, but this student's needs can certainly be well served by someone other than me. I wish the parents would stick up for me, but I can't blame them for wanting to find the course of least resistance here - one has to pick one's battles and I'm not sure this one is worth fighting, for the student's parents or for me.

-S-