Mudbucker Issue?

[GaryEB3]

I recently bought a 1970 EB3. I love it especially the mudbucker. However, when using only the mudbucker, I've noticed that the A and D strings have more punch (and volume) than the E and G strings. I tried raising and lowering the pickup screws but didn't seem to make a difference. I also tried a different amp but same issue. The other pickup (or combining both pickups) sounds even across all strings.
Could there be something wrong with the mudbucker? Any ideas?

 

[Hot Rats]

Welcome. I don't have any suggestions to address the volume difference, but it is my understanding that the slotted screws don't work like pole pieces with being able to adjust them to fine tune the string to pole volume.

 

[ctmullins]

Welcome. I don't have any suggestions to address the volume difference, but it is my understanding that the slotted screws don't work like pole pieces with being able to adjust them to fine tune the string to pole volume.

They do on a real mudbucker. It’s a sidewinder design, with the polepiece screws right in the magnetic field, so that should work. Try lowering/raising by a lot, and see if it helps.

The current Gibson SG bass uses a conventional dual-coil pickup with fake polepiece screws. Because Gibson is a slave to image….

 

[Hot Rats]

They do on a real mudbucker. It’s a sidewinder design, with the polepiece screws right in the magnetic field, so that should work. Try lowering/raising by a lot, and see if it helps.

The current Gibson SG bass uses a conventional dual-coil pickup with fake polepiece screws. Because Gibson is a slave to image….

Ahh yeah...I got the new fake one. I didn't know the old ones actually could be adjusted.

 

[Iristone]

Could be that the low-end was rolled off with the choke circuit (position 1 for G, position 4 for E). Is your Position 1 louder and bassier than the Position 4? To me the choke is essential to the classic EB3 tone, but removing it may help with volume imbalance.

 

[rtslinger]

It is is new you can't adjust them sadly, but there are many suitable replacements that you should look into our very own Lowend Lobster has some good video's on this You tube on this subject

 

[GaryEB3]

I have have some additional info and i think Iristone may be on to something. It only happens on position #1 (the heavy, punchy bass sound). I assume that's the full mudbucker without the choke, correct? Anyway, upon further analysis, it seems to be only a certain range of notes (frequencies), E thru A, that are louder and punchier when played on the A and D strings and on the E string but only when starting at the 12th fret. There is no difference in any notes played on the G string. For some reason the G string has a thinner sound compared to the other 3 strings. This is a pretty old bass and the electronics look to be all original and untouched. Could this be caused by an old electronic component or by just the natural resonance of the bass itself?

 

[40Hz]

The current Gibson SG bass uses a conventional dual-coil pickup with fake polepiece screws. Because Gibson is a slave to image….

I think it’s more because they have to consider the popular market opinion which is to automatically cast shade on sidewinder pickups despite the fact that most of the people criticizing Gibson basses have never played one.

Sidewinders are to conventional humbuckers what P90s are to regular single coils. They have a different sound which you either like or you don’t.

 

[Iristone]

I have have some additional info and i think Iristone may be on to something. It only happens on position #1 (the heavy, punchy bass sound). I assume that's the full mudbucker without the choke, correct? Anyway, upon further analysis, it seems to be only a certain range of notes (frequencies), E thru A, that are louder and punchier when played on the A and D strings and on the E string but only when starting at the 12th fret. There is no difference in any notes played on the G string. For some reason the G string has a thinner sound compared to the other 3 strings. This is a pretty old bass and the electronics look to be all original and untouched. Could this be caused by an old electronic component or by just the natural resonance of the bass itself?

Position 1 should be a notch filter, and its centre frequency (~277Hz) could be close to some overtones of the G string.Maybe try adjusting the EQ of the amp about that frequency? I wouldn't touch the electronics since all the filtering are exactly designed to provide this wonderful tone.

 

[ctmullins]

I think it’s more because they have to consider the popular market opinion which is to automatically cast shade on sidewinder pickups despite the fact that most of the people criticizing Gibson basses have never played one.

Sidewinders are to conventional humbuckers what P90s are to regular single coils. They have a different sound which you either like or you don’t.

Agree. My point was there is absolutely no functional reason for Gibson to make the current pickup look like a mudbucker. I just hate it when cosmetics trump functionality. Pet peeve….

 

[TheSpinDoctor]

The pickup coil, volume control, and tone control plus capacitor form an RLC circuit. This RLC circuit forms a frequency filter. (While searching the an EB-3 schematic, I found different schematics for 1973 and 1974 models, shown below. Differences are present in the tone control capacitor, volume and tone control values. Your EB-3 may have entirely different values than shown in either schematic. These changes can affect the filter characteristics.) This filter accounts for the volume and tonal characteristics that you notice. Unfortunately, without knowing the inductance value of the pickup, the actual filter response cannot be calculated. You can, though I do not recommend this with a vintage instrument, unsolder all of the components and measure the values with appropriate test equipment. Then the exact filter characteristics can be calculated.

I experienced the same phenomenon with my 1968 EB-0 (long since sold), that the volume output of each string was different. Adjusting the screw (pole piece) heights helped slightly. A compressor should do much to eliminate this.

 

[Planespotter]

The E string on my slot head eb-3l is noticeably weaker with the neck pickup solo. Mixing in the bridge helps it a bit. A compressor helps too, but you have to dial in a lot of squish to even out string volumes. It’s a common issue with the old sidewinders since the magnetic field is fairly narrow and heavy handed fingerstyle pulls the string away from the pickup.

 

[bftbassman]

My EB3 is set up with no tone circuit & just a pickup selector switch. Love it.

 

[Boneless]

The E string on my slot head eb-3l is noticeably weaker with the neck pickup solo. Mixing in the bridge helps it a bit. A compressor helps too, but you have to dial in a lot of squish to even out string volumes. It’s a common issue with the old sidewinders since the magnetic field is fairly narrow and heavy handed fingerstyle pulls the string away from the pickup.

My Italia Mondial bass has a sidewinder at the neck and it too suffers from a lot of imbalance across strings. I must say, though, that adjusting the screws solves the issue. The adjustment doesn't appear to make much sense (it's, like, higher on the E string and D string, and lower on the G string and A string, with the A string the lowest and the E string the highest) but it works.

 

[Boneless]

I think it’s more because they have to consider the popular market opinion which is to automatically cast shade on sidewinder pickups despite the fact that most of the people criticizing Gibson basses have never played one.

Sidewinders are to conventional humbuckers what P90s are to regular single coils. They have a different sound which you either like or you don’t.

Sidewinders aren't all that dark. I mean, they may be compared to a lot of other things but they do have some treble. (I think they have treble in the "wrong" place, and the treble that is there tends to have a glassy quality). The Artec mudbucker on the other hand is a terrible pickup, it's stupidly overwound and uses the wrong kind of magnets (due to the geometry of the pickup, the only magnets that make sense are strong ones).

 

[40Hz]

Agree. My point was there is absolutely no functional reason for Gibson to make the current pickup look like a mudbucker. I just hate it when cosmetics trump functionality. Pet peeve….

You and me are in the same page with that. Don’t even get me started on relic finishes.

 

[40Hz]

Sidewinders aren't all that dark. I mean, they may be compared to a lot of other things but they do have some treble. (I think they have treble in the "wrong" place, and the treble that is there tends to have a glassy quality). The Artec mudbucker on the other hand is a terrible pickup, it's stupidly overwound and uses the wrong kind of magnets (due to the geometry of the pickup, the only magnets that make sense are strong ones).

The thing that makes a difference is the aperture. Standard humbuckers sense the string at two different points a short distance apart. This adds harmonics snd contributes to the thicker sound a standard humbucker is known for.

Sidewinders turn the coils sideways with screws or a piece of metal between them facing the strings. So they sense the string primarily at a single point. This gives them a sound closer to a single coil, which was Gibson’s initial design goal. They were trying to develop a humbucking pickup that sounded like a single coil. Which was considered having the best of both worlds at the time.

But the stronger magnetic field created by two magnets and the extra capacitance from the second coil also changed the overall impedance in the circuit which in turn altered the sound. The end result was a pickup that landed tonally somewhere between a standard humbucker and a single coil. Kinda like what happens with the stacked coil humbucker which is marketed as a noiseless JB pup by Fender. Both designs can get a single coil vibe going. But neither one will ever be able to sound just like an actual single coil. You can’t beat the laws of physics.

 

[Engle]

I have have some additional info and i think Iristone may be on to something. It only happens on position #1 (the heavy, punchy bass sound). I assume that's the full mudbucker without the choke, correct? Anyway, upon further analysis, it seems to be only a certain range of notes (frequencies), E thru A, that are louder and punchier when played on the A and D strings and on the E string but only when starting at the 12th fret. There is no difference in any notes played on the G string. For some reason the G string has a thinner sound compared to the other 3 strings. This is a pretty old bass and the electronics look to be all original and untouched. Could this be caused by an old electronic component or by just the natural resonance of the bass itself?

I have a 68 EBO and currently have the G pole piece substantially higher to get it balanced. This is with Labella DTFs.
What strings are on yours? You may need a thicker G.

 

[GaryEB3]

Wow, thanks for all the input and advice everyone. I just put RotoSound monel flatwounds on and i think it's a bit worse than the roundwounds i took off. Overall it's not that bad and I'll adjust the pickup screws, amp settings, etc to get it evened out. Regardless I love the old EB and all the amazing sounds i can get out if it. Also, i was glad to hear from others with an EB who had a similar situation. BTW, has anyone tried the RotoSound black nylon strings on their EB? Maybe I'll get those a try next. Thanks again.

 

[Matt Kustom]

Wow, thanks for all the input and advice everyone. I just put RotoSound monel flatwounds on and i think it's a bit worse than the roundwounds i took off. Overall it's not that bad and I'll adjust the pickup screws, amp settings, etc to get it evened out. Regardless I love the old EB and all the amazing sounds i can get out if it. Also, i was glad to hear from others with an EB who had a similar situation. BTW, has anyone tried the RotoSound black nylon strings on their EB? Maybe I'll get those a try next. Thanks again.

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