Muddy Bass Sound - Please HELP

[SoulReflection]

I don't know why these posts keep coming up when the answer has been clear for years...

HPF

As in High Pass Filter​

 

[InhumanResource]

Ok hopefully this is the right area to post. My first time posting.

Little bit of a backstory - Been in a band (Pop Punk/Pop Rock trio) for the last 4 years and love the music the guitarist is writing. However, the drummer plays so loud. This leads me on to my post.

I use a 4 string Fender Player Jazz bass (Rotosound 105-45 gauge) and a Mark Bass CMD 121H 400W 1 x 12 Bass Combo. I also do own a Fender Vintera 50s P bass and still have the same issue. Both basses are passive.

I have the neck and bridge pick up up about half way and the tone put up about a 3rd.

Due to the drummer being so loud I have to pretty much crank up the gain and volume pots on my amp to 90% (5 on a clock). I've had to turn bass pot all the way down because if I turn that up it sound even worse, I have turn turning volume and gain down when turn the bass up pot up ( to about 8/9 on a clock) it still sounds so muddy. I've explained that we are playing way to loud because if turn down the gain (10 on a clock) and volume (10 on a clock) and put the bass pot on to 8 on a clock it sounds so much better and clearer. I have the Low mid, high mid and high pot set no more than 11.

I really can't afford to buy a more powerful amp so I don't have to push it so hard. Is there any suggestions/advice for me to try with my equipment. Any pedals that might help with my EQ more.

I know the more I turn up the volume on my bass I am pushing the signal more to it threshold, the same with the amp. I have tried turning my pickups to about 75% and turned down the gain and volumeto about 3/4 on a clock. Still get the same issue.

My understanding of gain is that it not a volume control. It controls how much of the input signal can pass through, and the volume control will determine how much to amplifi that signal depending on what you have it set as.

Not enough speaker, my friend. A single 12 isn’t going to keep up with a loud drummer. Adjusting your EQ to make sure the mids are bumped to give you as much punch as possible is helpful, but you sure need an extension cab in the mix. If cash is an issue it might make sense to dump the whole rig for a 410 (CHEAP used) and whatever head you can afford.

 

[LukeSlywalker]

I think we scared off the OP…come back, we’re not (too) crazy!

 

[jpmcbride]

Jeeze sorry for so many responses but I keep seeing potential problems. With your amp settings you posted, you are cutting your mids. Put those back to 12 o’clock and if you still can’t hear yourself, start raising the mids. Keep bass and treble at 12 o’clock

Yep. OP needs mids to cut through. Forget what it sound like solo, turn up the mids and it'll sound much better in the mix.

 

[Pdaddy1978]

Next gig.....turn your amp DIRECTLY at the drummer.
Peg it...
Afterwards.....fire him.

 

[Bioflava]

You have two choices: 1) Get the drummer to play at a lower volume or 2) double your amp size. Since #1 is basically impossible for most drummers, you'll probably have to focus on #2.

Tweaking knobs on your bass or amp could help a little, but you need at least 800 watts and a 4x10", a 2x12" or a 12" + a 15" to play loud rock music.

 

[Metropolis_488]

Interesting, nobody mentioned adding a dirt box of some kind (sorry if I missed it). A lot of distortion/ overdrive pedals significantly boost mids on their own, which is an added bonus (a lot of classic fuzz pedals tend to scoop mids, so not helping here). More importantly, I tend to think the overdrive will help cut through, and doesn’t necessarily sound “overdriven” when listening to the whole mix.

on a different note, interesting how 15-20 years ago every amp manufacturer was trying to make a cab that hit the brown note… Ampeg had a 4x10 that they proudly advertised as going down to 28hz.

20-30 years before THAT, everybody wanted a sealed 8x10 that cut off around 60hz (basically, a built in HPF). I guess what’s old truly is new…

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Here’s where I’d suggest starting. On the jazz bass, turn all knobs wide open. For clarity, you might try rolling off the neck pickup a little.

On the amp, set all EQ knobs to noon, and fully turn off any voicing filters, like VLE or VLF. Set master volume to noon. Set gain to 0 and turn up until you get a good level. Try adjusting EQ one knob at a time and really listen to the changes you hear. It helps to stand back a bit from the amp. Play along with a drum machine or recorded music that is playing through speakers to get a sense of what you will sound like in the mix.

Clarity in the bass lies in the midrange, so don’t cut it unless the sound is really boxy or too strident. While a scooped midrange might sound pleasant on your own, it won’t cut with a loud drummer. And by all means, protect your hearing.

Lots of good info Erik, but his gain section doesn't work that way. The sweet spot where he'll send the strongest and clearest signal to the power section is right where he gets that gain clip light to dance when he's playing hard. If you get the optimum signal from the preamp, the power section doesn't have to work as hard and you'll get more and better sound out of it.

You are spot on about changing just one knob at a time. You'll never know what is making the difference or you might make it worse twisting tow or more knobs at once. And standing away from the amp so you can actually hear it is a must. Otherwise you are playing to your knees and your knees don't hear that well. With that single 112, I'd put it on a chair both so I can hear it at home and the audience can hear it better at the gig too. Playing with a drum machine or other source of music at pretty loud levels will let you know if you're loud enough. Unfortunately it doesn't look like his CMD 121H has a aux input or he could use that to run them.

You know I wish someone had told me to wear earplugs back in the 60's and 70's. My hearing is great until it hits 3KHz. Then it drops to the bottom of the graph and slithers like a worm. With my headphones on, I just turn up the music. When I was touring in a nightclub group laying 5-nights a week, 50-weeks a year for 3 years, back in the early 70's, there were almost no FOH systems. I remember two places that had "PA's" and they were for voice only. So what we played at the levels we played though our amps was what everybody heard. And there were plenty of nights where my ears would be ringing after the gig...You NEVER want that to happen. By the way, a good set of hearing aids now are ~$5,000. Got mine on sale for $4,400.

 

[steveinohio]

Turn up the volume on your guitar. Set your amps settings to noon. Cut the bass on the amp back to 11. Get the amp off the floor on a milk crate or something like that.

 

[Oldbasslover]

Give your drummer a set of nice brushes…. Tell him/ her they will sound like a real drummer using them, one that actually mixes with the band.

 

[Topkat13]

Soap and water.

 

[hbarcat]

To make the best use of the gear you have I would do this:

1) Turn the volume up all the way on one (or both) of your pickups.

2) Turn up the tone pot to at least 75%.

3) Set your amp's 4 EQ controls like this:
Lows -- cut to 25%
Mid lows -- boost to 75%
Mid highs -- cut to 25%
Highs -- flat at 50%

4) Turn the main volume up to 100%

5) Adjust input gain to achieve desired output level.

But as others have said, you're being limited by your gear, so there are some further recommendations that would be most helpful:

1) Convince the guitarists to cut their low frequencies below 200 Hz (good luck with that, by the way).

1) Get an HPF (high pass filter).

2) Get an extension cabinet.

 

[definenredefine]

#1 fire the drummer, if not
#2 put all the bands amps right up to his ear
#4 sue the drummer for hearing loss. lol
#5 Good luck.

As a drummer I take exception to this. I SAID GOOD DAY, SIR.

 

[ga_edwards]

Everything has been said. Except, buy some earplugs if you're not using them already.

I used a Markbass LMII head with a single 1x12 markbass cab for years without needing a second cab. Plenty loud on it's own and this was against a drummer and two guitars (although we're not punk band). If I needed more volume, that's what the PA is for.

If you're playing so loud that your combo is running out of steam to be heard against a very loud drummer, please, please, please take care of your hearing. Once the damage is done it's irreversible. You will go deaf.

 

[ga_edwards]

Oh, and this will help
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[el murdoque]

I've played that amp, underpowered, in a punk setting.
You've got two friends here, honk and clank. Those will get you audible.
If you want to dial in your favorite bedroom sound, you'll need more cabinet. A lot more. 4x12 was what did it for me.

Start at the bass.
With a Jazz bass, turn up one pickup all the way. The neck pickup will give you a rounder, warmer sound with more bass, the bridge pickup will get you a more clanky, aggressive sound. The passive tone controls will take out treble content if not maxed. Turning up only one pickup will give you single coil hum. Turn up the one pickup you want to use then turn up the second pickup about 2/3, so the hum is gone. Adjust your tone, if needed with the tone knob. Start with the knob all the way up, that is the neutral position - it only works one way - reducing treble.

With the amp, start with the EQ at noon and the filters off. Turn up the gain until very hard playing lights up the clip LED, then back off a little so the light does not go on.
Now turn up the volume as loud as needed. If that does not get you close enough, reduce bass a bit and either boost mids (both) or turn up the VLE. The EQ on the Markbass amps is powerful, so do it in small increments.
When you reduce bass, you free up power. The mids will help you push through the mix and get you audible.

 

[SzunaP]

Sorry mate, I have to say you'll not find a solution with low budget Fenders - if I not misunderstood what you use.

I've written to another thread earlier, that if you have a cheap bass (I had some in my career), you cannot find any tool (amp, cabinet, PU, EQ, Multieffect, pedals, filters, compressors... etc) to got solution for crap sound. The wood is main thing, a litl bit may help a good PU/pre.

You will surprised REALLY when you 'll plug in to the same configuration a good bass vs. your bass...

 

[Reedt2000]

Ok hopefully this is the right area to post. My first time posting.

Little bit of a backstory - Been in a band (Pop Punk/Pop Rock trio) for the last 4 years and love the music the guitarist is writing. However, the drummer plays so loud. This leads me on to my post.

I use a 4 string Fender Player Jazz bass (Rotosound 105-45 gauge) and a Mark Bass CMD 121H 400W 1 x 12 Bass Combo. I also do own a Fender Vintera 50s P bass and still have the same issue. Both basses are passive.

I have the neck and bridge pick up up about half way and the tone put up about a 3rd.

Due to the drummer being so loud I have to pretty much crank up the gain and volume pots on my amp to 90% (5 on a clock). I've had to turn bass pot all the way down because if I turn that up it sound even worse, I have turn turning volume and gain down when turn the bass up pot up ( to about 8/9 on a clock) it still sounds so muddy. I've explained that we are playing way to loud because if turn down the gain (10 on a clock) and volume (10 on a clock) and put the bass pot on to 8 on a clock it sounds so much better and clearer. I have the Low mid, high mid and high pot set no more than 11.

I really can't afford to buy a more powerful amp so I don't have to push it so hard. Is there any suggestions/advice for me to try with my equipment. Any pedals that might help with my EQ more.

I know the more I turn up the volume on my bass I am pushing the signal more to it threshold, the same with the amp. I have tried turning my pickups to about 75% and turned down the gain and volumeto about 3/4 on a clock. Still get the same issue.

My understanding of gain is that it not a volume control. It controls how much of the input signal can pass through, and the volume control will determine how much to amplifi that signal depending on what you have it set as.

I have to think you've got the VLE knob cranked. VLE stands for "vintage loudspeaker emulator" and is a potentially massive high frequency roll off that starts at 20k hz and goes down to 250 hz (in other words it can drop not only the highs but nearly all of the mids if it's turned up high enough). As others have said turn that off.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Are you playing in a room with a PA? If so, and your amp has a DI out, you could connect your amp to the PA. More speakers for you, and then get the ******* drummer to shut up by drowning them out.

 

[Jscriv]

I've been playing in punk bands my whole life, and know what it's like when you can't afford to upgrade. First off, try the pbass, and put the pots both on 10. Bright strings will also help a whole lot to cut through the mix. Try your gain between 6 and 8, treble around 8, bass and mids somewhere between 4 and 6. Play with the levels while at practice not solo. The goal is to cut through the mix. Elevate your cabinet to waist height, or angle it back on a 45 of you can. Spread what sound you have up. And start saving (if you can even 5 to 20 bucks a week) for either an extention cab or a new combo. Fender rumbles are stellar and so would any 410 extension cab. Feel free to shoot me a message if you need or want to bounce idea around.