Music and Politics?

[shwashwa]

gore and the democrats tried to filibuster the civil rights act to stop it from passing. the republican senate minority leader had to draft compromise amendments to the act to get the democrats to end the filibuster. i love when liberals say yes your numbers are correct, but im still right. people today somehow think the democrats were the party of the civil rights act when they had the most opposition to it and even tried to prevent a vote alltogether with a filibuster.

 

[scottfeldstein]

If we're talking conservative=Republican and liberal=Democrat, which seems to be the case here

That's where you're going wrong. The conservative position on race in America didn't consolidate in the Republican party until after the passage of the Civil Rights act of 64. In fact, it was that event which caused it. The fact that the Democratic party prior to that event wasn't liberal on race relations is an interesting historical artifact, but it does not change the fact that resisting equal rights for black Americans was a conservative position.

 

[CopperheadLXXIX]

That's where you're going wrong. The conservative position on race in America didn't consolidate in the Republican party until after the passage of the Civil Rights act of 64. In fact, it was that event which caused it. The fact that the Democratic party prior to that event wasn't liberal on race relations is an interesting historical artifact, but it does not change the fact that resisting equal rights for black Americans was a conservative position.

Whatever pretzel you have to work yourself into I guess...

 

[avvie]

They must have the view that republicans are damaging to their way of life and artmaking, and they'd rather not have to deal with people they perceive to be against them.

Exactly.

Lemme give you a situation:

My best friend and favorite bandmate from the early 90's helped me to make up my mind to get rid of everything, move 6000 miles away and start my life over. We had to share a house for the first year, and what I didn't know about him was that he was a full-on hardcore Limbaugh/Fox rightwing neocon who liked starting political arguments first thing in the morning. His constant rants of "anyone who doesn't think like me is a treasonous moron" left me no choice but to take them personally.

He didn't last the whole year and moved back to the mainland. I stayed. Occurrences brought him back to the Big Island about three years ago, and he's returning to Maui next month. He's looking forward to us playing together again; I have zero interest in that because he can NOT keep from making everything- and I mean EVERYTHING- political.

I have been conservative for all my life, but modern media has destroyed the ability for anyone to have a simple, respectful conversation over any subject which affects us all. Another longtime friend followed the same route and I have had to disown him entirely...ban him from phone and e-mails because he's become nothing but a right-wing ball of vitriolic hatred.

Sometimes discrimination is a good thing.

 

[scottfeldstein]

Whatever pretzel you have to work yourself into I guess...

Yes, the pretzel known as "factual information."

The current Democrat = liberal and Republican = conservative wasn't always so--certainly not regarding race relations. Once upon a time it was different! Really! Democrats had the conservative position on the issue. After 64, it changed. At that time conservatives migrated to the Republican party. The end.

 

[avvie]

Scott, Copper, etc... please don't stray into an actual political argument. Observe the TOS.

 

[shwashwa]

Yes, the pretzel known as "factual information."

The current Democrat = liberal and Republican = conservative wasn't always so--certainly not regarding race relations. Once upon a time it was different! Really! Democrats had the conservative position on the issue. After 64, it changed. At that time conservatives migrated to the Republican party. The end.

republicans are actually very liberal when it comes to race realations and immigration. you follow the rules, and you're in. simple. what word(s) would you use to describe being in favor of criminal activity and illegally invading a country, raping it of its resources and not contributing anything in return? easy, vote buying.

 

[shwashwa]

Scott, Copper, etc... please don't stray into an actual political argument. Observe the TOS.

ok, im done too

 

[scottfeldstein]

Scott, Copper, etc... please don't stray into an actual political argument. Observe the TOS.

Good point. I've already stirred up more trouble than I intended. G'night all.

 

[avvie]

Thanks, y'all. We were on the way to demonstrating why that craiglist ad was worded that way

 

[Ben Noblit]

I, again proudly waving my completely non-impressive status as a Ph. D student who studies these things, say that scottfeldstein is completely right, on the historical issues, not the personal/political stuff.

Except on one thing. When you said that modern conservatism is all about social issues rather than economic ones, or something to that effect, that is a fallacy. You could say that the modern conservative MOVEMENT is that, or that present-day Republicanism is that, but not conservatism itself.

It is perfectly possible to be a social liberal and an economic conservative, or vice versa.

Also, I'm proud of my newly edited post on the previous page, and you should read it. Beware the history student avoiding homework, lol. An interesting, somewhat corollary point, the American Constitution contains ideas which, at the time, were largely liberal, but now, are often conservative. Make sense?

 

[CopperheadLXXIX]

Scott, Copper, etc... please don't stray into an actual political argument. Observe the TOS.

Not an argument! At least not on my end. Or at least not a serious one. Have friends and family of all different political stripes, and I'm not terribly conservative anyway...at least not when it comes to social issues.

 

[Gaius46]

I, again proudly waving my completely non-impressive status as a Ph. D student who studies these things, say that scottfeldstein is completely right, on the historical issues, not the personal/political stuff.

Except on one thing. When you said that modern conservatism is all about social issues rather than economic ones, or something to that effect, that is a fallacy. You could say that the modern conservative MOVEMENT is that, or that present-day Republicanism is that, but not conservatism itself.

It is perfectly possible to be a social liberal and an economic conservative, or vice versa.

Also, I'm proud of my newly edited post on the previous page, and you should read it. Beware the history student avoiding homework, lol. An interesting, somewhat corollary point, the American Constitution contains ideas which, at the time, were largely liberal, but now, are often conservative. Make sense?

Social liberal and economic conservative is a not too far off description of a libertarian. Though you'd need to add a good dose of small government anti federalism to get it completely right.

 

[Gaius46]

Conservatives take a harder line against foreigners and immigrants, thereby protecting "us" from outsiders--and outsiders ways of thinking/being.

Conservatives are against gay rights, preventing change and preserving The Way Things Have Always Been against the way things could be.

Conservatives are often religious fundamentalists, clinging to traditional morality as opposed to welcoming new understandings of what it means to be a good person.

Once upon a time there was a group of people who thought black Americans should have equal rights and there was another group of people who thought they shouldn't. I'll let you ponder which position was conservative and which liberal.

Likewise with women's rights.

Please don't tell me that modern American conservatism isn't about those things, that it's about "fiscal responsibility" or some nonsense. That hasn't passed the giggle test since the early 80s.

Being conservative doesn't necessarily make one wrong. (I personally think conservatives are often wrong, but that's another issue.) But the term conservative still means what it's always meant: resisting change, preserving existing ways of doing things. There's no use getting insulted about it. It is what it is. Embrace it, I say.

I actually had a group of people ticked off at me recently because I had the audacity to say that the Taliban was a conservative group. Being American conservatives themselves, they were deeply insulted and refused to see that they, like the Taliban, fit the most general definitions of the term.

This is all well and good but it is not what was being discussed. We were discussing being open to new ideas. We were not discussing political ideology. Conservatism and liberalism define ideologies. They are not indicators of whether one has a pliable enough mind to be open to or accepting of new ideas. People who label themselves as liberal are often just as blind as to good ideas that don't conform to their ideology as are people who label themselves conservative.

 

[Floyd Eye]

Conservatives take a harder line against foreigners and immigrants, thereby protecting "us" from outsiders--and outsiders ways of thinking/being.

Conservatives are against gay rights, preventing change and preserving The Way Things Have Always Been against the way things could be.

Conservatives are often religious fundamentalists, clinging to traditional morality as opposed to welcoming new understandings of what it means to be a good person.

Once upon a time there was a group of people who thought black Americans should have equal rights and there was another group of people who thought they shouldn't. I'll let you ponder which position was conservative and which liberal.

Likewise with women's rights.

Please don't tell me that modern American conservatism isn't about those things, that it's about "fiscal responsibility" or some nonsense. That hasn't passed the giggle test since the early 80s.

Being conservative doesn't necessarily make one wrong. (I personally think conservatives are often wrong, but that's another issue.) But the term conservative still means what it's always meant: resisting change, preserving existing ways of doing things. There's no use getting insulted about it. It is what it is. Embrace it, I say.

I actually had a group of people ticked off at me recently because I had the audacity to say that the Taliban was a conservative group. Being American conservatives themselves, they were deeply insulted and refused to see that they, like the Taliban, fit the most general definitions of the term.

They should be pissed at you, you are misleading in your use of the terms. I would also be very interested in YOUR research with regards to who it was that was opposing black people having rights. I have done my research and already know the answer, but I am very curious to see your research.

Also, FWIW, as I said, I am a conservative ( not necessarily republican). I do not oppose gay rights, abortion, civil rights, drug legalization or LEGAL immigration. I do oppose illegal immigration, socialization, concentrating vast authority with the federal government and progressive tax rates.

No opinion on religion whatsoever. I don't care what you believe in and I base NONE of my decisions or opinions on religion.

 

[treekiller]

With the Republicans, man exploits man. With the Democrats, it's the other way around.

Music to me is an oasis, my one refuge away from the cacophony of the outside world where I can leave the BS of politics, etc. behind!!!

 

[omnimutant]

I don't necessarily have a problem with the "idea" of Political music, but what bothers me is how factually inaccurate a good majority of it really is. Then kids listen to it and think they know whats up because <insert rock star> said so. Then they grow up believing this stuff, and often times don't come to realize just how wrong it was all a long.

Whats worse is when it's used as Propaganda. Yes, we (Americans)have freedom of speech, and yes I absolutely defend the right to use it how you see fit, but it would be refreshing for some to take on the responsibility that goes along with that freedom, of accurately expressing your point of view and being cautious enough not to abuse that right at a whim. There may come a time in our lives when the First amendment may disappear. Let's try and respect it.

Slightly OT:

What I find totally mind numbing and some times hysterical, is how so many people claim to be "punk rock" and "Anarchy" and all that and apparently don't realize that these are (were) anti establishment movements, yet the very people (and bands) who profess these ideals are very much into the establishment mentality. They often side a political party and support a specific political view point. Many of these people don't realize how much they are contributing to the very system they profess to be against. Alas it's the way of the world.

I think when people truly realize how much they are being duped by all the major political parties, maybe then things will calm down and become rational again. But probably not. One cannot take an Honest stand with any one political party and against another at this point, and not (no fault of your own) be a complete hypocrite. They both have different ways of achieving the same goal (separating you from your wallet and taking more power away from you). They are just marketing it to different audiences.

In the end, unless you are targeting a very small audience of people whom you think have your exact PoV, your going to end up pissing off more people then you will gain if your music content is too political. Many people listen to music to escape the drama of the day, not embed themselves deeper into the lame reality that is our lives

Music to me is an oasis, my one refuge away from the cacophony of the outside world where I can leave the BS of politics, etc. behind!!!

+1

 

[GregC]

Wow, this thread is an eye-opener. Never really knew libs could be so bitter until now having seen it first-hand.

As to capitalism hurting people (posted by a person using the fruits of capitalism to spread his cheer), it's no different than the "Occupy" organizers using iPads to organize their movement. Preposterous, yet hilariously funny at the same time...

C'mon people... the proof is in, communism doesn't work. America was founded on freedom, capitalism, and faith in God, and produced the best version of civilization in the history of the world. Who is risking their lives to flee to Cuba? No one... but, if you're so dag-gone in love with socialism, why don't you relocate there???

(Don't forget that Republicans fought Democrats to free the slaves... )

Excellent use of the strawman argument and false generalizations. This is sadly indicative of the level of political discourse today.

 

[GregC]

Just a thought but maybe they're writing some political protest songs and don't want to have any conflicts within the band..

This was my thought as well. They could have stated it more precisely, though.

Personally, I don't wish to play openly political music or limit my choice of bandmates this way, but others are free to do so.

 

[Thor]

Closed until I have a chance to go over it.

What part of 'We don't do politics on Talkbass' is so hard to understand?