Excellent! well written and easy to understand. BRAVOI love Victor, but in my opinion, he's wrong on this one.
Keys and key signatures are two separate (but related) concepts. Keys are a sonic/musical reality, while key signatures are an abstract notational device.
Our ears tell us there are 24 keys in western music: one major key for each note of the 12-tone chromatic scale, and one minor key for each note of the 12-tone chromatic scale.
Key signatures are a shorthand that we've invented to make notated sheet music easier to read. Theoretically it is not "necessary" to use key signatures at all! Any song can be notated in any key signature. For example, John Coltrane's "Giant Steps" is often notated with a key signature of 0 sharps and 0 flats. But that doesn't mean "Giant Steps" is in C major (or A minor)! It's just notated that way because it's easier to read.
Our standard system of music notation is flawed and imperfect. It has accumulated a lot of quirky features along the way throughout its history. For example, a common beginner question, "Why does the major scale start on C? Wouldn't it make more sense to start on A?"
Because of these flaws in standard music notation, there are certain key signatures that exist in theory, but aren't commonly used because the notation is awkward. For example, imagine we are playing in C# (7 sharps) and we want to modulate to the key of G#. Modulating up a perfect 5th is called the "dominant key" and is probably the most common modulation in all of music history. If you are following the Victor Wooten video, you might say, "G# major is not allowed, because there are only 15 major keys, and you can only have 7 sharps." But Ab major (4 flats) is "allowed" so you might choose to notate your song in C# with a modulation to Ab. Awkward!!
But in fact there is a key of G# major. It has 8 sharps, or more accurately, 6 sharps and a double-sharp (F##). Look at a composition such as "Prelude and Fugue no. 3" from J.S. Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier." It is notated in the key signature of C# major and modulates to the dominant key of G# major. Bach accomplishes this modulation through the use of F## just as we would expect.
Victor Wooten teaches that there are 15 major keys and 15 minor keys for a total of 30. But that is simply a limitation or quirk in our notation system. The 30 keys he's talking about are the ones that can be written without using double-sharps or double-flats. But given that double-flats and double-sharps are a "thing" that exists, we have to conclude that keys like G# major or Fb minor do theoretically "exist". For example, good old C major could also be theoretically written as B# major. We don't avoid these keys because they "don't exist" but rather because they are cumbersome to read, with all the double-flats and double-sharps. In theory, every key signature has an enharmonic equivalent; in practice, the only enharmonic keys that are commonly encountered are the ones that are easy to read and write: Db/C#, Gb/F#, and Cb/B.
In conclusion, there are 24 keys (12 major and 12 minor), at least 48 theoretical key signatures (24 major and 24 minor), and 30 practical key signatures (15 major and 15 minor) that are typically encountered in the real world.
It's important not to get hung up on the significance of the number 15. The truly significant number is 12 (because the octave is divided into 12 parts), whereas 15 is just an artifact or quirk of our notation system. My grandpa used to do a magic trick where he tried to convince me he had 11 fingers. The 3 "extra" key signatures (bringing the total from 12 to 15) are "enharmonic equivalents" or "two different names for the same thing." F# and Gb are undoubtedly two different key signatures, but saying they are two different keys is like my grandpa counting the same finger twice!
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Music Theory gold?
- Thread starter LowActionHero
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Yeah, I doubt I could ever go to one of his camps, but I REALLY hope he films it sometime.
Awesome post. Dropping some serious knowledge!I love Victor, but in my opinion, he's wrong on this one.
Keys and key signatures are two separate (but related) concepts. Keys are a sonic/musical reality, while key signatures are an abstract notational device.
Our ears tell us there are 24 keys in western music: one major key for each note of the 12-tone chromatic scale, and one minor key for each note of the 12-tone chromatic scale.
Key signatures are a shorthand that we've invented to make notated sheet music easier to read. Theoretically it is not "necessary" to use key signatures at all! Any song can be notated in any key signature. For example, John Coltrane's "Giant Steps" is often notated with a key signature of 0 sharps and 0 flats. But that doesn't mean "Giant Steps" is in C major (or A minor)! It's just notated that way because it's easier to read.
Our standard system of music notation is flawed and imperfect. It has accumulated a lot of quirky features along the way throughout its history. For example, a common beginner question, "Why does the major scale start on C? Wouldn't it make more sense to start on A?"
Because of these flaws in standard music notation, there are certain key signatures that exist in theory, but aren't commonly used because the notation is awkward. For example, imagine we are playing in C# (7 sharps) and we want to modulate to the key of G#. Modulating up a perfect 5th is called the "dominant key" and is probably the most common modulation in all of music history. If you are following the Victor Wooten video, you might say, "G# major is not allowed, because there are only 15 major keys, and you can only have 7 sharps." But Ab major (4 flats) is "allowed" so you might choose to notate your song in C# with a modulation to Ab. Awkward!!
But in fact there is a key of G# major. It has 8 sharps, or more accurately, 6 sharps and a double-sharp (F##). Look at a composition such as "Prelude and Fugue no. 3" from J.S. Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier." It is notated in the key signature of C# major and modulates to the dominant key of G# major. Bach accomplishes this modulation through the use of F## just as we would expect.
Victor Wooten teaches that there are 15 major keys and 15 minor keys for a total of 30. But that is simply a limitation or quirk in our notation system. The 30 keys he's talking about are the ones that can be written without using double-sharps or double-flats. But given that double-flats and double-sharps are a "thing" that exists, we have to conclude that keys like G# major or Fb minor do theoretically "exist". Even good old C major can be written enharmonically as B# major! We don't avoid these keys because they "don't exist" but rather because they are cumbersome to read, with all the double-flats and double-sharps. In theory, every key signature has at least one enharmonic equivalent; in practice, the only enharmonic keys that are commonly encountered are the ones that are easy to read and write: Db/C#, Gb/F#, and Cb/B.
In conclusion, there are 24 keys (12 major and 12 minor), at least 48 theoretical key signatures (24 major and 24 minor), and 30 practical key signatures (15 major and 15 minor) that are typically encountered in the real world.
It's important not to get hung up on the significance of the number 15. The truly significant number is 12 (because the octave is divided into 12 parts), whereas 15 is just an artifact or quirk of our notation system. My grandpa used to do a magic trick where he tried to convince me he had 11 fingers. The 3 "extra" key signatures (bringing the total from 12 to 15) are "enharmonic equivalents" or "two different names for the same thing." F# and Gb are undoubtedly two different key signatures, but saying they are two different keys is like my grandpa counting the same finger twice!
The bass/nature camp was a great experience. I got to hear some wonderful performances, especially Victor and Felix Pastorious. I learned some cool stuff, not a ton, but some stuff definitely pushed me out of my comfort zone. The food was fantastic. The Kung Fu instructor was crazy and that was a solid trip. Making a fire with a friction setup was a cool experience. Walking through the woods blindfolded was eye opening. The jams at night were fun, they had great rigs to play through.
And I got to meet *Chuck Rainey*!!! He told me I looked like his friend Bobby Vega. I was straight up star struck.
By the way, despite my earlier manifesto, I do actually kind of agree with Victor! He begins the lesson with the question, "How many people practice in all keys? Raise your hand." He's talking about approach to practicing (not theory and semantics like me). I think his point is: When you sit down to practice something "in every key," don't just move your box pattern to the E string 2nd fret, wiggle your fingers on muscle memory, and smugly say, "There! Now I've practiced it in both F# and Gb." Take the time to consciously think of (or say out loud) the note names, in both the flat and sharp keys. I agree with Victor that, when practicing a musical idea "in all keys," it is worthwhile to play the pattern 15 times instead of 12 times, so that your brain gets comfortable with the enharmonic keys.
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I agree, i meant "newer" player, in some experience. Like the beginners book for any instrument- the staffs, the time sigs, keys..... should be covered maybe before the instrument is picked up. But people who already function on an instrument, with no other knowledge, may be confused.
I've going to disagree due to the simple fact that if you are suggesting that one can learn all of music theory from one 5 minute video, (as you clearly seem to imply) that in itself is a completely ridiculous point of view.
But more to the point that I believe he was actually making, there is nothing about ANY aspect of theory that's particularly difficult. People just try to make it mysterious.
A little 1st grade math and some rote memorization will cover 90% of it.
Music isn't hard. Differential equations is hard. Organic Chemistry is hard. This is nothing.
Roman Numerals... Really? lol...
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Music is not per se a Language, is an expression...expressions develops into a Languaje. It can be applied to any art. Impressionism was not a Languaje was just an expression of how i felt the world is. Classic painters never tought of it as an art because they didnt have the "rules" to understand new coming painters. My point is: Scales can be taught, harmony can be tought. Music CANT be tought. And as long is an expression of what you felt is music. Period.
I think what you mean is in order to play with others musicians, you need a language, therefore how to speak it.
You will be amazed if you could ask a musician with no previous theory language to make music. That person could even do "complex" music. why? because he is not thinking in rules to make music. Just feeling the right notes to express what he thinks he wants to say. And there is why some writers with no study or any Literature background could write "better" books than some with all the knowledge about how to write...form doenst overcome substance...
Not bashing music study, just sayng my honest 2. cents. I like to study some music myself. But dont think music theory is going to do the hard job for you. Music is what you have inside....
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How many students failed out of or dropped high school or college level theory classes that you've attended? It's typically not a inconsequential number. If music is so easy, why does this happen? I have a feeling you have never been in one, so it's understandable if you can't authoritatively comment on this.
If music is so easy, why do schools even offer coursework in it? Pumping gas is easy. That's why there's no terminal degrees in it.
If 90% of music is simple math and rote memorization, then why are there so many hundreds of questions about it on this very forum going back decades? Why are there so many books on the subject? Why do so many seem to struggle with it? Why do advanced players study with more advanced players that charge $150 an hour? It's easy, right?
I'm going to have to disagree with your assertion that music is simple and easy. Nobody is out there making it mysterious, it's just a subject that takes a lot of work to grasp. Going around saying it's easy is a disservice to the high number of people that study hard to learn it. If music was truly that easy, everybody would be playing like Wooten right away and he wouldn't be anything special at all.
I don't know any accomplished musician that says this is easy unless they're trying to sell something (i.e. books, website memberships, or camp tuitions) or aren't as well-versed in it as they think they are. But maybe average people are just dumb and others are just higher-plane geniuses. Have a blessed day!
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I sorta agree with you both. There are some concepts that are easy to understand, especially in a real classroom or lesson setting where you have a better chance of focusing and can stop to clarify, that are less clear when teaching yourself. And when you find the missing piece that ties it all together it's awesome. But you can also go as deep as you want with it, and it seems it can get real complicated quick. My problem is watching or sometimes just listening, without my full attention sometimes, and missing those key points. I need
to make time in a quieter setting and dig in. And can't even type this without getting stopped a few times.
Then there's bad information or unclear points. I recently read something and thought wow, I've had that wrong all this time, only to find out I was right the first time. (Chord related, my school music background was mostly saxophone.) my point in posting these was hoping it cleared up someone else's confusion like it did for me.
Some wise man around here once said if you're teaching yourself something you don't know, you have the worst teacher.
to make time in a quieter setting and dig in. And can't even type this without getting stopped a few times.
Then there's bad information or unclear points. I recently read something and thought wow, I've had that wrong all this time, only to find out I was right the first time. (Chord related, my school music background was mostly saxophone.) my point in posting these was hoping it cleared up someone else's confusion like it did for me.
Some wise man around here once said if you're teaching yourself something you don't know, you have the worst teacher.
People drop out of high school/college all the time, music notwithstanding. I already have advanced degrees from Georgia Tech, which has a 33% failure rate, because it's a pretty tough school. I know how to be taught and I know what it takes to learn. So when I got into it, I didn't find music theory anything mind bending. I happened to find it fairly simple in fact. If you think its difficult, then I suppose that's your personal challenge. I'm not claiming to know everything about it. But when I find out something new, it doesn't make my head hurt.
Anyway, I do know the execution is the hard part and is typically the aspect that takes the most work. Numbers and letters on paper, though is simple child's play. But execution and theory are two totally different things, so of course, knowing something on paper doesn't make anyone a great musician necessarily. I've done extended study with a very accomplished teacher who you know. So I have a good idea of what it takes to learn this stuff. Overall, I'm just saying that personally I happened to find it an easy topic. Learning principles and applying them is something I've done for a long time and I get paid to do it.
Having said all that, music is just something I do for fun. I don't think about it as intently as some do. The difficulties people seem to have I think comes from not learning it the correct way in the first place. Many people look for shortcuts where there are none.
This is just my personal journey. Doesn't have much to do with what someone else experiences.
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I think the first video posted was the "gold"
Victor's video is just "neat tricks" for key signatures.
I think it's related to the difference in the two videos.
Consider two ways to present theory:
1.) here is how you use the circle of fifths to calculate key signatures
2.) the underlying diatonic pattern of all western music, scales and chords is WWHWWWH, and we can look at it in fantastic variety of ways.
approach 1.) is what I saw in my theory classes -and what Victor seems to be presenting as "theory"
24 vs 30 keys? calculating key signatures? Yawn ... who cares?
No wonder people bail in a theory 101 class : It's boring and mostly useless to what we want to do with music.
approach 2.) is the meat of theory, the stuff I gravitated to pursuing it on my own.
The underlying patterns of music are tremendously useful to know.
But in a theory class it rarely seems presented that way.
Victor's video is just "neat tricks" for key signatures.
I think it's related to the difference in the two videos.
Consider two ways to present theory:
1.) here is how you use the circle of fifths to calculate key signatures
2.) the underlying diatonic pattern of all western music, scales and chords is WWHWWWH, and we can look at it in fantastic variety of ways.
approach 1.) is what I saw in my theory classes -and what Victor seems to be presenting as "theory"
24 vs 30 keys? calculating key signatures? Yawn ... who cares?
No wonder people bail in a theory 101 class : It's boring and mostly useless to what we want to do with music.
approach 2.) is the meat of theory, the stuff I gravitated to pursuing it on my own.
The underlying patterns of music are tremendously useful to know.
But in a theory class it rarely seems presented that way.
Years ago, I worked for a vocalist who would call a song in any key as the mood struck him in front of an audience. It was terror at first, but got easier as I learned how to learn songs in all 12 keys.
PS. Bring a 5 string for the occasional note below E.
PS. Bring a 5 string for the occasional note below E.
Good luck with videos like these.
There are no shortcuts, no magic bullets, no fairy dust nor any excuses.
Music theory is not difficult but there is a lot of it, plenty of which is not predicated on the major scale.
The biggest barrier to learning music theory is, IMHO, the volume of theory-related BS (and nay-sayers) on the internet, including this site. Get a good book, find a quiet room with a piano (or your bass), some manuscript paper and a pencil. Start on page 1...
YMMV...
There are no shortcuts, no magic bullets, no fairy dust nor any excuses.
Music theory is not difficult but there is a lot of it, plenty of which is not predicated on the major scale.
The biggest barrier to learning music theory is, IMHO, the volume of theory-related BS (and nay-sayers) on the internet, including this site. Get a good book, find a quiet room with a piano (or your bass), some manuscript paper and a pencil. Start on page 1...
YMMV...
I agree with you (and usually do). But I think the differences in the two videos is understanding the difference between music theory and execution.
The Victor video is entitled "Music theory is Simple" (sort of a click-bait title). But it wasn't, "Here's Everything You Need to Know About Music Theory". So what I believe he was doing Big Picture-Wise is illustrating two separate points. The first point was to not be susceptible to fuzzy thinking simply because you think you already know something. The second was, to understand that in music, many things relate to other things in ways that will allow you to easily keep it in your head. The examples he gave were not intended to be some kind of final point.
So the takeaway (for me) isn't to "only" know there are 15 major and minor keys. It wasn't to start a debate on whether there are 12 vs 15. It was about clarity of though and having a strong reference point. Simply because people never tend to think of Cb major (or some other "Weird Key") as a valid key doesn't mean it doesn't exist, so if you make the conscious decision to discount it, then you are choosing to cloud your understanding of keys. I personally always feel it's better to know something than not know it.
The other takeaway that I got from the Victor video, is to be on the lookout for relationships that make your musical life easier. The example given was that the major with sharps and major keys with flats relate in easy to remember ways. For example, I think you absolutely need to know that D major has 2 sharps and that B minor also has 2 sharps, etc. Keeping that stuff in your head for instant access is important. But it's not hard to do. And there are all kinds of ways to do that, not just the one he described.
You can call it a "trick" if you want, but ultimately, you still need to know it. Whatever method you use to do that is fine.
The other video by the guitarist, which goes through patterns, etc, isn't theory. It's execution. Knowing where the notes are, how they connect all over the instrument, and things like that isn't a theory. It's a definite, concrete concept. That video is showing you how to manipulate notes so you can eventually execute your ideas.
So as you said, the two videos illustrate two completely separate points. But I think people are confused about what is actually being taught here. I found them both useful.
But as people like to say, YMMV...
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Victor's point of D major having 2 sharps and Db having 5 which then gives a total of 7 sharps between both, I found interesting. However, how that helps me play got lost between the chairs. I'm still working on that.....
I messed around with what he said for several hours and came to the conclusion that yes there are 30 keys. And then that brought up the thought of the old guys saying: "Play your scales in all keys" -- really all 30!
I enjoyed the video, as it did get me thinking....
I messed around with what he said for several hours and came to the conclusion that yes there are 30 keys. And then that brought up the thought of the old guys saying: "Play your scales in all keys" -- really all 30!
I enjoyed the video, as it did get me thinking....
For me, that mainly has to do with knowing things and not knowing things. You can play your instrument without knowing anything, other than how to move your fingers and which one of the frets to play at what time. However, you could be left out of certain playing situations, depending on what you know and what you don't. It doesn't mean everything is critical 100% of the time...
OMFG. Db has 5 sharps? Holy crap!. My point about internet BS just proved itself - again.
Db Major: 5b in key signature...
Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C.
Enharmonic equivalent is C#. 7#.
C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#
@MalcolmAmos ...you are right to let it fall between the chairs because its bull.
He meant to say D major has 2 sharps and Db has 5 flats which adds to the number 7... Honest mistake.
Fair enough... But where is the practical application other than memory trick, which I was agreeing with @MalcolmAmos about. If i drop from Db to C the total number of accidentals is 5. If I go from F to E the total is 5. If i go from C to B, still 5. If i go up a 5th I add a # or drop a b.
Anyway, no offense meant...
