• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

My custom homebrew 6 String

#24
I admit, i did find it odd that JP didn't reply to the email cos I see his posts here all the time. but i got so deep into actually building the bass, it slipped my mind to re-ask for permission. i never expected the bass to turn out good cos it was supposed to be an experiment and it was my first time. so i didnt think too much of it to ask again.

anyway. i'm firmly for what wolfehollow [your basses are droolworthy. and i love the chinese inlays (me being chinese and all)] and JP believe, that permission should be asked when doing stuff like this. I guess with jazz,P,etc basses that are copied so often, they've been around so long and the process of building it is so far removed from the original designers cos of industrial machines that the emotional ties with the instrument aren't as strong as when you design AND execute it with your bare hands.

as for my next bass, it will def be of my own design. and the first person i'm going to for first looks and opinions will be my fav luthier JP (if he's still talking to me) :)
 
#25
as for DWbass's question on the control cover, the reason for the different grain direction was cos i goofed up. this was the 3rd cover i made. all the covers were made using the left over from the mahogany body blank. since i dont have any tools to thickness the block, i used a forstner bit to drill away the excess thickness, the a router to clean up.

the first one ended up being too small for the cavity cos i made the recess for it a bit too big cos of what i refer to as "the router incident". the second one i made i d drilled right thru the middle with a forstner bit when thicknessing it.

by that time, the only piece of wood i had left of sufficient size was one where the grain was in the other direction. if i had goofed up on the 3rd one, i would have probably given up and duct taped the cavity close.

i don't know how luthiers like JP et al shape the covers such that they fit like a glove. took me forever to make something that was just acceptable.
 
#27
If the control cover isn't going to match the rest of the wood on the back, how about matching the quilt on the front for contrast? That way it doesn't have to match exactly, but it still looks good. (just an idea...)

weeeugene said:
as for DWbass's question on the control cover, the reason for the different grain direction was cos i goofed up. this was the 3rd cover i made. all the covers were made using the left over from the mahogany body blank. since i dont have any tools to thickness the block, i used a forstner bit to drill away the excess thickness, the a router to clean up.

the first one ended up being too small for the cavity cos i made the recess for it a bit too big cos of what i refer to as "the router incident". the second one i made i d drilled right thru the middle with a forstner bit when thicknessing it.

by that time, the only piece of wood i had left of sufficient size was one where the grain was in the other direction. if i had goofed up on the 3rd one, i would have probably given up and duct taped the cavity close.

i don't know how luthiers like JP et al shape the covers such that they fit like a glove. took me forever to make something that was just acceptable.
Click to expand...
 
#28
Well, Even if you did take JP's design that (Which I agree was inconsiderate without permission) that is not the main point, while bringing it up IS important the main question was "How did I do" or something to that nature Correct? Well, all that aside, I think you did GREAT. A Really Fantastic job, especially for your "Wood-Virgin" hands.

Who knows... Maybe with some HEAVY research and Practice you could become a Luthier yourself. That would be a sweet job.
 
#29
i did consider trying to make the cover out of the maple, but the issue wasnt what to with it but rather what i had on hand to do it. i didnt have enough maple left over to do the cover so that was out the window. didnt really think it would look good either cos while the two woods look good next to each other, to have one small patch in the middle of the other didnt look good in my eyes.

i toyed with the idea of making the truss rod cover and the wooden pickup covers with the mahogany, but i didnt like the color combination as well as the texture differences between the two. just a personal preference.

it would actually have been easier to make the pickup covers out of mahgoany and the control cover from maple cos the thickness of the raw pieces of wood i had matched them respectively. in the end, i had to drill away the mahogany to the thickness of the maple, and had to build up the thickness of the maple to the mahogany.

anyway, having a lack of resources made me cheat a little with the covers. they weren't carved soley from maple. only the top of it was. i got some cheap pine from home depot and glued the maple (5/16 thick) to the pine (about 5/8 thick). then i routed the pickup cavities such that only the maple portion of the cover was visible so it gives the illusion that the whole thing was carved out of maple.

having said this, i have a question for any of you who has built wooden covers. from the examples i've seen from Nordstrand and F bass, the screws that hold the covers into place are right at the very edge of the cover. since the walls of the cover are pretty thin, how do you ensure the screwholes don't split the wood? i couldnt figure this out, so i made mine to pressure fit into the slot, hence the absence of screws.
 
#30
JP Basses said:
Fred and I just build a small number of basses a year and they're all like our babies so seeing one exact copy is kinda weird.

I just think it would have been much nicer to ask before using the shape. That's what I would have done anyway.

Peace,
JP
Click to expand...


Exact copy? So how many basses with bolt-on Washburn necks do you make a year? I thought you made custom, high end, neck thru basses.

The folks that are onto Eugene here for borrowing a shape from JP here need to butt out. A look at the facts illustrate the lack of even thin ice to base an opinion.

1. The design is NOT copyrighted, trademarked, or service marked. Lacking any of these protections, ANY design is subject to replication without permission from the originator. In this case JP doesn't "own" the design. And how was that design derived? Did he use any elements from another design, or was he influenced by another design? If he did then perhaps HE is the one in violation of a trade law. It's silly either way.

2. JP is located in Europe. EC copyright laws are not enforceable in the US. But remember - the design is NOT protected in the first place.

3. Eugene has built a bass for himself using a shape he admires from one of his favorite builders. He isn't in the biz, he isn't making dies or digital files to replicate multiples of the shape, and he isn't marketing or selling them. He simply built a bass to play. And Eugene isn't passing it off as either a Plume or a JP. There is no damage to JP and, as of now, he can't prove any.

4. The guys that say borrowing the design was inconsiderate etc. need to examine how much stuff they have (from anywhere) that features a design that is a copy, knock-off, "borrowed", or stolen from the design rights holders. To uphold the opinion and be consistent that using an unprotected design is unethical, would mean divesting yourself of any objects that have that exhibit the same characteristics. Use tissue? Well, that was taken from the Kleenex people. Use J pickups? Original Fender design. Ever bought an aftermarket bent tin bridge? Another Fender design. AND if any of them have built a bass with a P or J shape, they've violated the same rules they are so righteously defending.

Get a clue. It's a moot point, it's a petty point, and it illustrates so clearly the more-righteous-than-you attitude that permeates this site all too often. I wonder if this level of outrage would be shown to someone that copied a Wishnevsky design?

:spit:
 
#31
To sum up my opinion... it would be flattering if someone asked to use a shape I had derived from other shapes.

...JP can see it however he wants, it doesnt have to be against the law for it to make him feel strange. No one said any wrong was done, he just feels uneasy or something along those lines. I am sure wishnevsky would feel something also if he saw an instrument in the liking of those he builds... I think some are more worried about this than others.
 
#32
Hambone said:
Exact copy? So how many basses with bolt-on Washburn necks do you make a year? I thought you made custom, high end, neck thru basses.
Click to expand...

The body has an exact Plume shape to be more precise.
I built bolt ons and set necks basses Hambone.


Hambone said:
1. The design is NOT copyrighted, trademarked, or service marked. Lacking any of these protections, ANY design is subject to replication without permission from the originator. In this case JP doesn't "own" the design. And how was that design derived? Did he use any elements from another design, or was he influenced by another design? If he did then perhaps HE is the one in violation of a trade law. It's silly either way.
Click to expand...

I didn't wrote anything about legit use or so. It's all emotional you know. Also, once again we're talking about the body shape and that's it. Am I violating a trade law, I don't think. Did I say Eugene was doing so? I don't remember I did that.


Hambone said:
2. JP is located in Europe. EC copyright laws are not enforceable in the US. But remember - the design is NOT protected in the first place.
Click to expand...

Is eugene located in the US? I think he is from singapoure.


Hambone said:
3. Eugene has built a bass for himself using a shape he admires from one of his favorite builders. He isn't in the biz, he isn't making dies or digital files to replicate multiples of the shape, and he isn't marketing or selling them. He simply built a bass to play. And Eugene isn't passing it off as either a Plume or a JP. There is no damage to JP and, as of now, he can't prove any.
Click to expand...

Who talked about damage?

Hambone, my first reaction was:
JP Basses said:
:eek:

strange feeling to see the first Plume copy...

Well I guess I would have appreciated that you ask before using the shape :hmm:

Nice job for a first one anyway. Looking forward to see #2, with your own design of course ;)


Peace,
JP
Click to expand...

People in this thread talked about copying a design (body shape) without asking permission. In the way I think of it, it's about beeing polite to someone you say you respect.

We're not talking about laws, protection or whatevere here. Also here in France we have something called "intelectual property" which protects artistic creations from being copied. It works for an instrument's body shape, so techincally I could protect those shape, at least in france, but I don't care for that.

Hambone said:
Get a clue. It's a moot point, it's a petty point, and it illustrates so clearly the more-righteous-than-you attitude that permeates this site all too often. I wonder if this level of outrage would be shown to someone that copied a Wishnevsky design?

:spit:
Click to expand...

I'm a talkbass member. I post pretty often and Eugene discovered my work here. Was easy for him to ask through PM, email, phone, MSN...I'm always available. I think people you wrote in this thread meant the same thing I did, saying that it would have been "better" to ask me before doing it.

Aslo, Does Wishnevsky have a body shape he always use? All his basses are different aren't they? you recognize his basses to his style not from a precise body shape.

Hambone, you build basses right? I've seen some of your work and I thing I've read you were going to come out with a body shape of your own. When you've built a couple of them and if it happens that one time you loggon TB and discover someone you never heard about built a replica, you'll understand my feelings right now.


Peace,
JP
 
#33
Hambone said:
Exact copy? So how many basses with bolt-on Washburn necks do you make a year? I thought you made custom, high end, neck thru basses.
Click to expand...
From my point of view, you are missing part of the point here. Part of what identifies JP's basses is the shape. That has, in fact, been copied.

The folks that are onto Eugene here for borrowing a shape from JP here need to butt out. A look at the facts illustrate the lack of even thin ice to base an opinion.

1. The design is NOT copyrighted, trademarked, or service marked. Lacking any of these protections, ANY design is subject to replication without permission from the originator. In this case JP doesn't "own" the design. And how was that design derived? Did he use any elements from another design, or was he influenced by another design? If he did then perhaps HE is the one in violation of a trade law. It's silly either way.

2. JP is located in Europe. EC copyright laws are not enforceable in the US. But remember - the design is NOT protected in the first place.
Click to expand...
True enough. JP does not appear to have taken any legal protection for his design in any location. No one claimed that he had.
3. Eugene has built a bass for himself using a shape he admires from one of his favorite builders. He isn't in the biz, he isn't making dies or digital files to replicate multiples of the shape, and he isn't marketing or selling them. He simply built a bass to play. And Eugene isn't passing it off as either a Plume or a JP. There is no damage to JP and, as of now, he can't prove any.
Click to expand...
No commercial damage, I'll agree. Unless sometime in the future it is taken (intentionally or unintentionally) to be a JP, and is not up to snuff. In which case there would be commercial damage.

To me the damage is in having something you've created, developed, deliberated, prototyped, and agonized over, taken from you. And that refers not only to the finished basses, but to the design itself. You choose to use established designs - great for you. But in my experience, having only drawn and revised some designs, not even getting 1/4 of the way to realizing them as JP has done, that it is a personal process, and that some of your "self" goes into it. And that is what was taken without permission.

4. The guys that say borrowing the design was inconsiderate etc. need to examine how much stuff they have (from anywhere) that features a design that is a copy, knock-off, "borrowed", or stolen from the design rights holders. To uphold the opinion and be consistent that using an unprotected design is unethical, would mean divesting yourself of any objects that have that exhibit the same characteristics. Use tissue? Well, that was taken from the Kleenex people. Use J pickups? Original Fender design. Ever bought an aftermarket bent tin bridge? Another Fender design. AND if any of them have built a bass with a P or J shape, they've violated the same rules they are so righteously defending.
Click to expand...
The examples you cite are basically functional designs. The are functional solutions to problems, and are patentable, for a limited time period, as such. I hold the design process to be different, largely in its aesthetic-artistic nature. You may disagree. Personally I get enjoyment from various aesthetics, and even if they are not legally protected, I feel that there is some respect to be paid.
Get a clue. It's a moot point, it's a petty point, and it illustrates so clearly the more-righteous-than-you attitude that permeates this site all too often. I wonder if this level of outrage would be shown to someone that copied a Wishnevsky design?

:spit:
Click to expand...
Would there be this level of outrage? I would speculate not, more like confusion and disbelief. But IMO it would be just as wrong. Is that a more-righteous-than-you attitude? I don't think so, it's not my aim to be more righteous than anyone else. It's what I believe, regardless of anyone else.
 
#34
woah. i seemed to have really stirred up something here.

I think everyone is entitled to their views, and thanks for the support on the job i've done, but i think JP deserves an apology for what i did.

Hambone - thanks for sticking up for me, but i think i owe JP an apology whatever the case may be, not because of who was wrong or right legally or otherwise, but just plain courtesy. the bass body design was a direct rip off of JPs Plume. and i don't think forumers should take it out on him about how he feels about it. he could have been a lot meaner and called me a ripoff or something to that effect. but he praised my effort, which was pretty decent of him.

i've sent JP an email thru this forum apologising but he hasnt replied yet though he's posted on the forum since. JP, if you're out there, have you received the email?
 
#37
Eugene,
That bass looks beautiful! Nice work! Do you feel the need (since everything turned out so nice) to replace the washburn neck with something a little nicer? Warmoth maybe?

Also regarding all the other stuff that's going on in this thread.....

I know it's been said before and there were a few instances in the past where this kind of thing has happened, but this kind of back and forth about this subject should be discussed in private. Sorry, my $.02 :cool:
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back