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My custom homebrew 6 String

I suppose that is the last time Eugene or hopefully anyone else decides to show their work.


If it weren't for the internet, JP never would've had his feelings hurt.

I can understand it would be a bit shocking, but I think it's utterly ridiculous that anyone deserves an apology. The man copied your design for *his own personal use*. If he were marketing and selling them it would be a completely different story, but it's not.
 
JP Basses said:
If he were marketing them it would be a business story. Here it's 'just" a sentimental story.

JP

Which is why that I personally would be flattered :) Nothing to worry about except the fact that someone liked my design well enough to put hours upon hours of work into it to make as close to an exact copy as MY original. :)
 
Thanks everyone for the kind words. it really means a lot cos i never expected the bass to come out looking decent. i'm a little overwhelmed both cos of the good comments and the debate it has caused.

its the first time i've ever own power tools other than a powered drill before. before this, i thought people were using their network sharing devices to "route" their pickup cavities.

anyway, my next project was going to be a warmoth neck with my own designed body. still don't have the courage to try a neck on my own cos i don't have the tools or the workspace to do it. (fyi - my workbench for this bass was a kneehigh wooden coffeetable about 1.5 feet square. i have no vice, planes, rasps, spokeshaves,bandsaws etc to speak off. only a power drill, cheap router and a router table and a jigsaw. i worked in a spare bedroom and managed to burn a hole thru the carpet with my soldering iron) it would probably be a lot cheaper to just buy the neck ready made from warmoth rather than buy a whole collection of tools that i may or may not use again.

this time round, i'll def post progress pics to get feedback. i didnt know it would arouse such great interest.
 
weeeugene said:
Thanks everyone for the kind words. it really means a lot cos i never expected the bass to come out looking decent. i'm a little overwhelmed both cos of the good comments and the debate it has caused.

its the first time i've ever own power tools other than a powered drill before. before this, i thought people were using their network sharing devices to "route" their pickup cavities.

anyway, my next project was going to be a warmoth neck with my own designed body. still don't have the courage to try a neck on my own cos i don't have the tools or the workspace to do it. (fyi - my workbench for this bass was a kneehigh wooden coffeetable about 1.5 feet square. i have no vice, planes, rasps, spokeshaves,bandsaws etc to speak off. only a power drill, cheap router and a router table and a jigsaw. i worked in a spare bedroom and managed to burn a hole thru the carpet with my soldering iron) it would probably be a lot cheaper to just buy the neck ready made from warmoth rather than buy a whole collection of tools that i may or may not use again.

this time round, i'll def post progress pics to get feedback. i didnt know it would arouse such great interest.

The tools you describe are all you need. Fred and I still work in a 10 square meters room. A drill press, a jigsaw, a router and a sander some rasps and sandpaper are all the tools we use. Do the neck yourself, best way to learn the craft.

Peace,
JP
 
Ty McNeely said:
I suppose that is the last time Eugene or hopefully anyone else decides to show their work.
Certainly not. It would be nice though if it were the last time someone copied someone else's work without their permission.
If it weren't for the internet, JP never would've had his feelings hurt.
True. And if it weren't for the internet, Eugene wouldn't have had a fantastic design to copy. But let's not hold the internet responsible.
 
It's too much trouble to quote two posters at the same time so I'll just wing it here as best I can...

Let me begin with saying that if any of you believe that I don't understand this subject, I should point out that I've been a commercial designer and graphic artist for 24 years. I've had dozens of designs copyrighted, and protected in other ways in dozens of fields of endeavor. I've had designs copied, forged, distributed, and stolen. I've also been on the other end and have run afoul of rights holders. Nothing serious. So I don't take the subject of intellectual property and it's ownership lightly.

pilotjones said:
To me the damage is in having something you've created, developed, deliberated, prototyped, and agonized over, taken from you. And that refers not only to the finished basses, but to the design itself. You choose to use established designs - great for you. But in my experience, having only drawn and revised some designs, not even getting 1/4 of the way to realizing them as JP has done, that it is a personal process, and that some of your "self" goes into it. And that is what was taken without permission.

Your understanding of the design process and how it comes about is pretty much right on. Taking it as you've stated, the question that begs answering is that if JP felt that connected and wanted to protect that aspect of his work, why didn't he choose to protect the design? My point is that I view JP's lament as after the fact whining when he realized his work could be copied without permission. He should, in fact, be flattered at the mimicry and immediately go out and begin work to protect that design and any other he feels valuable enough to cover.

The examples you cite are basically functional designs. The are functional solutions to problems, and are patentable, for a limited time period, as such. I hold the design process to be different, largely in its aesthetic-artistic nature. You may disagree. Personally I get enjoyment from various aesthetics, and even if they are not legally protected, I feel that there is some respect to be paid.

One of the last examples I cited (the P shape) is having it's form protected by Fender precisely because of it's "design" and not because of it's function. I think Eugene DID pay respect to JP, indirectly at first by copying his design and then directly by displaying it posted with the reason he copied his design. All of the posts right after Eugenes post honored JP in recognizing the shape as JP's.

JP,

First, I assumed that Eugene was in the US. I didn't look at his profile. The point stands - nothing enforceable here.

Ty has it right. I would have been much more impressed with your response had you congratulated Eugene on the build and considered it flattering that he chose your shape over others for the reason he did. Eugene's choice of your shape bodes well for your all of your work. It will be copied because of it's quality. You should actually get used to this and IMO ease up on any individual that wants a shape like yours. If that design means as much to you to cause you to admonish a fan, I would also get thee to a lawyer and get this stuff tied down to you. You're in the international business world now and you should have your ducks in a row for purposes of protecting your work. If you don't, you'll be relegated to the big heap of good ideas and good execution going down the tubes for poor business management.
 
Hambone said:
JP,

First, I assumed that Eugene was in the US. I didn't look at his profile. The point stands - nothing enforceable here.

Ty has it right. I would have been much more impressed with your response had you congratulated Eugene on the build and considered it flattering that he chose your shape over others for the reason he did. Eugene's choice of your shape bodes well for your all of your work. It will be copied because of it's quality. You should actually get used to this and IMO ease up on any individual that wants a shape like yours. If that design means as much to you to cause you to admonish a fan, I would also get thee to a lawyer and get this stuff tied down to you. You're in the international business world now and you should have your ducks in a row for purposes of protecting your work. If you don't, you'll be relegated to the big heap of good ideas and good execution going down the tubes for poor business management.

First I think I commented about Eugenes work right in my first post.

Second -last time I'll repeat that-, my point is not about protecting the design or intellectual property, it's just about feelings and emotions. Too bad you seem to not understand my point of view but I guess it doesn't really matter finally.

I need to ease up???
I can't understand the "admondish" word (remember I'm french) but I don't think I've said something bad towards Eugene and we also exchanged emails today so things are clear between us. I just wish we had talked before Eugene build the bass. That's what I say from the beginning.

Poor business management? maybe. I don't run bass building as a business. I run it with heart and soul and that's why I love it.

Peace,
JP
 
I hesitated to post..but...Lord...

Hambone's tack is almost completely off course...his posts are overkill in tone and content and IMO hopefully does not bode for the atmosphere here at Talkbass...this debate about JP's reaction has never been at source about strict legalities and international buisness law....its been about people participating in a cyber social community and reacting or behaving as such..just like in any other social group or informal gathering...or even group of friends. There are IMO some etiquets that go along with participating in this kind of arrangment that has nothing to do with cold buisness absolutes. This is about people mingling with other people in a friendly and, "social" context. In this more realistic context here at this forum...JP has every right to his feelings ...and incidently, his feelings never seemed to imply what you, Hambone, needed to inject into them.
Clearly, Hammy and Ty cannot separate the human aspect with a buisness one in ANY context. I would have felt the same as JP, and I would have felt the the same as Eugene (he wanted to apologize)..as this is the kind of natural reaction two HUMANS in an informal social enviroment should have.
But...ahh...you can quote me the exact clause in the books on international patents and copyrights if absolutely have to again- its actually amusing

To TB as a human forum for human beings!!

AYE?
 
basses55 said:
Clearly, Hammy and Ty cannot separate the human aspect with a buisness one in ANY context.

I suppose growing up in the south gave me a bit of a "tougher" attitude when it comes to some things.

Actually, I never mentioned anything about "business" in my posts, aside from the bit about marketing. JP seemed to be overly upset, and yes, he is entitled to his feelings and opinions. My point was just that it seems a bit ridiculous to get one's panties in a wad over something that would completely FLATTER me. It'd be like a bassist posting a clip of him playing a bassline that *I* came up with. As long as there was no money involved, which there isn't, I see *NO* reason why anyone would be upset!

As I said--I guess I just tolerate things much better than some people, and I must understand that. Not everyone has the same feelings or beliefs as me, although it sometimes takes awhile to get around to realizing that fact.

JP, I apologize for making light of your feelings as that is totally not what I intended for most posts to convey.

Peace? :)
 
While some people may be beating the already halfway decomposed proverbial horse as someone so accurately stated, the fact remains that eugene's bass rules. JP's designs are certainly worthy of such flattery.

I now have to create an Alembic ripoff with a pile of pine logs and a plastic spork in order to one-up that thing. :D
 
this settles it. i'm going to attempt building a neck from scratch for my next bass. received some very encouraging email about the bass and i am thoroughly flattered. thanks to all who have posted or sent your encourage email, you've really boosted my confidence to try the neck thing.

this time round, it's going to be my own design, prob a fretless to make it a little easier. now off to the drawing board.
 
weeeugene said:
this settles it. i'm going to attempt building a neck from scratch for my next bass. received some very encouraging email about the bass and i am thoroughly flattered. thanks to all who have posted or sent your encourage email, you've really boosted my confidence to try the neck thing.

this time round, it's going to be my own design, prob a fretless to make it a little easier. now off to the drawing board.
You should set your sights a little higher - i'm thinking an exact replica of JT's double neck Conklin :D

(jk) - BTW how is the finish on the JP Tribute up close? Did you have any issues with the woodwork? I would love to make a bass but have two left hands when it comes to things like that!
 
ha. good one. the closest i'm going to get to a melted top is the cheese on my toast.

the finish is ok i guess. not top notch but i'm happy with it. its tru oil for a beginner like me. as for the woodwork, frequent visits to this forum helped alot. i made quite a few mistakes, too many to name on this thread. but for anyone who wants to try out making a bass, write me and i can give u a low down on what NOT to do.
 
JP,
This thread's issue(s) aside, I encourage you to copyright/trademark your body's design. It's a unique and beautiful design and you deserve to "own" it if you so desire. It can do no harm to you to do so and now that you've had a little taste of what "this" can feel like you could sleep better at night without concern.

It would be far better in my opinion to have no regrets later and you could still give permission for one offs at any time.

I believe that what you are now feeling emotionally may be very very minor compared to what you might feel if YOU aren't allowed to use your OWN design by another company/builder in the future!!!
The original poster DID do a fantastic job and should be congratulated on that and encouraged to keep building using his own design in the future.
(Really-amazing job! It's too bad that this issue came along for "the ride" but it IS a lesson to be learned from.)

BUT, I think that the "off topic" issue here somewhat outweighs the importance or at least should share the importance of the appreciation of eugene's first attempt.

I agree 100% with pilotjones regarding the sacredness of intellectual property. I am so sick of young people (and I'm not THAT old!) feeling no compunction whatsoever about ripping off online music, buying copied videotapes off the street, cracking software, etc. It's morally, ethically and if protected, legally wrong/wrong/wrong. People defend this behavior until someone else rips off THEIR creation after they put years in apprenticing, studying, investing in their own creation(s) and they end up feeling hurt, ripped off and other appropriate emotions-just like JP who is certainly entitled to feel those.

However, I also agree with Hambone about the fact that should JP decide to keep his creation for himself that he should protect it. He's coming on a bit strong but he also is correct in his points. If JP's design is the base (yeah, yeah) of his business model then protecting it IS definitely something to consider.

eugene is acting belatedly appropriately by apologizing personally to JP and I believe that he WANTED to be a nice guy but patience and timing would have paid off with a thread full of accolades for his bass instead of the "mixed bag" he's getting.

That said-keep building eugene. Your first effort is beautiful from what we see in your pics.