My Dirt Bender - Another Jounal

[sunbeast]

Moving on to the DI OUT:
View attachment 7538359

The blue line, labeled "everything off" means just that. The cab sim is off, so is the pedal. The output is much lower then, I compensated a bit, also for the "cab sim only" yellow line, where the pedal itself was switched off, but the cab sim switch turned to the 'on' position.
The green line has all the knobs (again, excepting blend) at noon and the cab sim on.

Just because the Morning Glory had me scratching my head for a minute, I did check if raising the Drive knob has a meaningful impact on the EQ:
View attachment 7538357

...which it does not.

...and here is the EQ once more, but this time with the cab sim activated.

View attachment 7538358

I really love the Fifteen, cool to see these graphs! With the "does the Drive affect EQ", I think it is more that the EQ will affect the character and amount of Drive in this case (and with all the Bassrigs) since the Drive is actually like the channel volume on a tube amp and so the EQ is pushing the power amp emulation harder as you push it rather than the typical input gain that comes before the EQ. That is hard to really show using a noise sweep vs an actual bass signal, the way the EQ will affect which frequencies are getting clipped more. I think that differentiates the Bassrig preamps from most other SVT/B15 preamp options where the Gain is pre-EQ (correct me if I am wrong RE: the Broughton Fliptop for example). That difference is what drew me to the Fifteen when it was first announced while I have avoided other B15-ish pedals.

I am definitely intrigued by the curve you get combining the cab-sim with cranked Bass/Treble- so far I've mostly avoided the cab-sim on my Fifteen, but this curve is promising and something I'll have to fiddle with more (including using the Amp EQ switches so my stage rig isn't too clacky bright and subby).

There is a "sweetness" that I get from the Fifteen at low Drive that I find super addictive- it so far isn't as nice in a rock mix for me as the Super Vintage (the Fifteen kinda blends in where the Super Vintage punches through), but kinda does the tone Magic thing I would want from a device like the Noble for example (even as the Noble obviously has a different EQ topology and no really obvious clipping on tap). The drive character of the Fifteen is surprisingly versatile too because of the interplay of the EQ and Drive (you can definitely get it into a cool "fuzz" territory when you push the Bass and Drive). There are a lot of tones to be found in it for sure despite relatively limited "Amp" controls.

 

[el murdoque]

I really love the Fifteen, cool to see these graphs! With the "does the Drive affect EQ", I think it is more that the EQ will affect the character and amount of Drive in this case (and with all the Bassrigs) since the Drive is actually like the channel volume on a tube amp and so the EQ is pushing the power amp emulation harder as you push it rather than the typical input gain that comes before the EQ. That is hard to really show using a noise sweep vs an actual bass signal, the way the EQ will affect which frequencies are getting clipped more. I think that differentiates the Bassrig preamps from most other SVT/B15 preamp options where the Gain is pre-EQ (correct me if I am wrong RE: the Broughton Fliptop for example). That difference is what drew me to the Fifteen when it was first announced while I have avoided other B15-ish pedals.

I am pretty sure the Broughton Fliptop also has the EQ pre drive. I remember struggling getting a clean'ish low end from it, because whenever the lows were big enough for Sir Mix-A-Lot and me, they would fart out, even with the gain set low.

How the EQ affects the drive is hard to show in a graph, though. I guess that's what text is for ;-)

I am definitely intrigued by the curve you get combining the cab-sim with cranked Bass/Treble- so far I've mostly avoided the cab-sim on my Fifteen, but this curve is promising and something I'll have to fiddle with more (including using the Amp EQ switches so my stage rig isn't too clacky bright and subby).

I'll have to experiment more, and in a mix - because I really dig the low end side of things with a cranked EQ knob and active cab sim, but the high end starting the downward part of the graph at around 1800Hz is a bit early for my taste - but maybe that does not matter as much in a mix.

There is a "sweetness" that I get from the Fifteen at low Drive that I find super addictive- it so far isn't as nice in a rock mix for me as the Super Vintage (the Fifteen kinda blends in where the Super Vintage punches through), but kinda does the tone Magic thing I would want from a device like the Noble for example (even as the Noble obviously has a different EQ topology and no really obvious clipping on tap). The drive character of the Fifteen is surprisingly versatile too because of the interplay of the EQ and Drive (you can definitely get it into a cool "fuzz" territory when you push the Bass and Drive). There are a lot of tones to be found in it for sure despite relatively limited "Amp" controls.

I wholeheartedly agree with almost every word in this paragraph.
My only addition would be that the Noble is meant to do crystal clear tube sounds, which it does - and cranking the lows on the noble feels extremely sweet to my ears, especially for a more modern sound with big lows. The Fifteen, in my current assessment, goes more for the low wattage tube amp vibe, which means the low end quickly runs out of headroom, and that is the entire point.
The SV emulates the SVT, which is a huge amp with heaps of power and serious headroom. When you make that roar, it roars with righteous anger.
The Fifteen emulates the vintage B15, which runs on a single pair of 6L6 tubes, opposed to the sextet of 6550 tubes in the SVT. There is little headroom to begin with, and you'll immediately reach the limits of that - and I think that (at least in part,) this is what makes the B15 sound so iconic. A warm and somewhat mellow tube amp that is easily breaking a sweat.

 

[sunbeast]

I am pretty sure the Broughton Fliptop also has the EQ pre drive. I remember struggling getting a clean'ish low end from it, because whenever the lows were big enough for Sir Mix-A-Lot and me, they would fart out, even with the gain set low.

How the EQ affects the drive is hard to show in a graph, though. I guess that's what text is for ;-)



I'll have to experiment more, and in a mix - because I really dig the low end side of things with a cranked EQ knob and active cab sim, but the high end starting the downward part of the graph at around 1800Hz is a bit early for my taste - but maybe that does not matter as much in a mix.



I wholeheartedly agree with almost every word in this paragraph.
My only addition would be that the Noble is meant to do crystal clear tube sounds, which it does - and cranking the lows on the noble feels extremely sweet to my ears, especially for a more modern sound with big lows. The Fifteen, in my current assessment, goes more for the low wattage tube amp vibe, which means the low end quickly runs out of headroom, and that is the entire point.
The SV emulates the SVT, which is a huge amp with heaps of power and serious headroom. When you make that roar, it roars with righteous anger.
The Fifteen emulates the vintage B15, which runs on a single pair of 6L6 tubes, opposed to the sextet of 6550 tubes in the SVT. There is little headroom to begin with, and you'll immediately reach the limits of that - and I think that (at least in part,) this is what makes the B15 sound so iconic. A warm and somewhat mellow tube amp that is easily breaking a sweat.

Yes I mean to say that the B15 vibe is what I want something like the Noble to be (and weirdly also how they do or at least used to advertise it despite the circuits having virtually none of the fundamentals in common). FWIW, with the Fifteen I have no issues staying at least perceptively clean with the EQ cranked up, I do remember hearing that about the Fliptop I think now that you mention it

 

[projectapollo]

When I tried the 15, I observed that at lower drive levels with no cab sim it sounded remarkably similar to the DCX Bass. The EQ controls were similar as well.

 

[el murdoque]

When I tried the 15, I observed that at lower drive levels with no cab sim it sounded remarkably similar to the DCX Bass. The EQ controls were similar as well.

The DCX in EQ mode has way more bass boost on tap, compared to the Fifteen - or more midscoop, depending on how you look at it, but they do feel like cousins.

I do feel like the James tone stack is enough to take a raw bass signal and make it work, while the DCX tone stack is more something to polish up a processed signal and make it shine more.

 

[el murdoque]

Yes I mean to say that the B15 vibe is what I want something like the Noble to be (and weirdly also how they do or at least used to advertise it despite the circuits having virtually none of the fundamentals in common). FWIW, with the Fifteen I have no issues staying at least perceptively clean with the EQ cranked up, I do remember hearing that about the Fliptop I think now that you mention it

I don't think Jack does much advertising with the Noble.

However, there is this one quote on his website:

It's like a B15 in a box!

--Eric Loux (FOH engineer Allen Stone, others)

...and I know that has been up for a long time, because when I ordered my Noble about 5 years ago, I saw that quote and it made me wonder - all the B-15 simulating gear I tried up to this point had the tendency to add harmonics when turning up the lows, and I wanted them crystal clear.

I'd say that all the Noble and the B-15 have in common is that they operate on three knobs, run on tubes and are loved by recording engineers around the globe (or across the disc - for followers of Marc Sargent and/or fans of Terry Pratchett).

 

[sunbeast]

I don't think Jack does much advertising with the Noble.

However, there is this one quote on his website:




...and I know that has been up for a long time, because when I ordered my Noble about 5 years ago, I saw that quote and it made me wonder - all the B-15 simulating gear I tried up to this point had the tendency to add harmonics when turning up the lows, and I wanted them crystal clear.

I'd say that all the Noble and the B-15 have in common is that they operate on three knobs, run on tubes and are loved by recording engineers around the globe (or across the disc - for followers of Marc Sargent and/or fans of Terry Pratchett).

Yeah the website essentially is the only hint at what it is, I seem to recall some lingo in there previously actually directly saying it was an attempt to capture a B15 sound too but it has been years since I looked so that quote may be what I saw. I would argue that leaving that up there without adding any contrasting info about the circuit is basically the same as claiming it true. To the point that I've had multiple people on TB insist to me that it doesn't have a Fender tonestack (because for some reason that bothers them!) because it is actually a "B15 Im a box". I'm pretty sure it was one of these people who directed me to the website in the first place as evidence for their claim years ago, saying that they trusted the guy who designed it more than me to know what it is…
It's weird because in the guitar world the Fender tonestack is long revered (often called "amp-style tonestack" or just "tonestack" (which describes the way that particular EQ circuit is laid out, with the Treble filter on top of the other two essentially leaking parts of the signal to ground), but in the bass world somewhat derided (at least on TB) while the idea of the B15 has always been celebrated under false pretenses (attached to the recordings of James Jamerson, who actually used a colored DI rather than an amp in the studio- of course in much more recent decades plenty of bassists used B15s for recording but these are rarely the examples we see mentioned). "Lore" really has so much power in guitar/bass gear circles! Personally I've always loved the Fender stack for bass (well at least since understanding how to set it to do what I wanted), part of that is the way it can easily sculpt added harmonics (in most amp circuits it comes before any component that might clip) which the Noble mostly eliminates by design as did the Alembic F2B and a few other bass preamps many years before the Noble came on the scene (the Alembic never tried to oblique what it was though).

 

[el murdoque]

Yeah the website essentially is the only hint at what it is, I seem to recall some lingo in there previously actually directly saying it was an attempt to capture a B15 sound too but it has been years since I looked so that quote may be what I saw. I would argue that leaving that up there without adding any contrasting info about the circuit is basically the same as claiming it true. To the point that I've had multiple people on TB insist to me that it doesn't have a Fender tonestack (because for some reason that bothers them!) because it is actually a "B15 Im a box". I'm pretty sure it was one of these people who directed me to the website in the first place as evidence for their claim years ago, saying that they trusted the guy who designed it more than me to know what it is…
It's weird because in the guitar world the Fender tonestack is long revered (often called "amp-style tonestack" or just "tonestack" (which describes the way that particular EQ circuit is laid out, with the Treble filter on top of the other two essentially leaking parts of the signal to ground), but in the bass world somewhat derided (at least on TB) while the idea of the B15 has always been celebrated under false pretenses (attached to the recordings of James Jamerson, who actually used a colored DI rather than an amp in the studio- of course in much more recent decades plenty of bassists used B15s for recording but these are rarely the examples we see mentioned). "Lore" really has so much power in guitar/bass gear circles! Personally I've always loved the Fender stack for bass (well at least since understanding how to set it to do what I wanted), part of that is the way it can easily sculpt added harmonics (in most amp circuits it comes before any component that might clip) which the Noble mostly eliminates by design as did the Alembic F2B and a few other bass preamps many years before the Noble came on the scene (the Alembic never tried to oblique what it was though).

The Fender tone stack is the bedroom bassists' wet dream come true, but IMHO it comes with some problems when applied to music that features electric guitars that use dirt. The Noble has some common ground with that, because it has shelving controls that only add bass and/or treble, and it's completely clean unless you hit it hard.

But I totally agree on the lore aspect. Yes, Jamerson used a B-15, but to my knowledge, only when playing live or when recording outside of Motown, where he used a DI, yet the B-15 is firmly associated with the Jamerson sound.

I think I read in a Carol Kaye interview that the Wrecking Crew had owned a few B-15 amps that were strategically placed in music studios all over town, so they would frequently use them - and it has the reputation of being the most recorded amp ever. Even if that's not true, it has been used a lot in the past.

I do think I've read people online claiming the Noble to be like a B15, even though I could never agree with that statement myself because the way I see it, the B15 is all about that edge of breakup thing while the Noble is all about clean headroom for days.

 

[chiphaleonbass]

The Fender tone stack is the bedroom bassists' wet dream come true, but IMHO it comes with some problems when applied to music that features electric guitars that use dirt. The Noble has some common ground with that, because it has shelving controls that only add bass and/or treble, and it's completely clean unless you hit it hard.

But I totally agree on the lore aspect. Yes, Jamerson used a B-15, but to my knowledge, only when playing live or when recording outside of Motown, where he used a DI, yet the B-15 is firmly associated with the Jamerson sound.

I think I read in a Carol Kaye interview that the Wrecking Crew had owned a few B-15 amps that were strategically placed in music studios all over town, so they would frequently use them - and it has the reputation of being the most recorded amp ever. Even if that's not true, it has been used a lot in the past.

I do think I've read people online claiming the Noble to be like a B15, even though I could never agree with that statement myself because the way I see it, the B15 is all about that edge of breakup thing while the Noble is all about clean headroom for days.

100% hints why a lot of pro bassists have and use both. Sean Hurley drives the front end of his B15 with the Noble in studio so he has a clean sound and a broken up amp sound while recording

 

[el murdoque]

I just realized that I've never measured the Audio Kitchen Fake Plastic Trees, and so I went ahead and did it.
Those interested, here you go:

 

[projectapollo]

The Fender tone stack is the bedroom bassists' wet dream come true.....

This is why I liked the Origin Black Panel using the 1/4" amp out when practicing at home. The EQ on that Bassrig was gorgeous at home.

BTW, The Broughton P15 was the best sounding preamp I ever tried. It's the actual B15 circuits, as he describes it. But the form factor was not ideal for playing live. I would like to have one again just for desktop practice use.

I ordered a Noble last year, scheduled for production in September.

 

[el murdoque]

OMG. Let me just interject for a second and rectify what el_murdoque of a few years ago said about the Fake Plastic Trees.

I want to claim now, that the Fake Plastic Trees is the most tube like non-tube pedal there is, ever was and will be.
I recently used it in combo with the Verellen Meatsmoke and have both set up just on the edge, because they stack so well. But using the FPT alone, with a bit more grit dialed in just had me jam for half an hour with a stupid grin chiseled into my jaw. Man, this thing is the GOAT.


Okay, back to topic. Where were we? Ah yes. Getting sidetracked by supposedly false advertising on the Noble website because overanalyzing the Fifteen has taken us there.

 

[el murdoque]

This is why I liked the Origin Black Panel using the 1/4" amp out when practicing at home. The EQ on that Bassrig was gorgeous at home.

BTW, The Broughton P15 was the best sounding preamp I ever tried. It's the actual B15 circuits, as he describes it. But the form factor was not ideal for playing live. I would like to have one again just for desktop practice use.

I ordered a Noble last year, scheduled for production in September.

AFAIK, the P15 is a faithful recreation of the B-15 preamp section, so it leaves out the power amp bit, which is, in my book, quite crucial to get the whole picture. However, I fondly remember the insane range of "just on the edge of breakup" the P15 offered. I've often claimed the DCX in EQ mode is among the most touch sensitive drive pedals out there, and that claim is only made by me because the Broughton P15 is not a pedal.

The Noble wait seems to be close to over then. IME, Jack keeps to his timelines with German precision. I'm excited for you ;-)

 

[sunbeast]

The Fender tone stack is the bedroom bassists' wet dream come true, but IMHO it comes with some problems when applied to music that features electric guitars that use dirt. The Noble has some common ground with that, because it has shelving controls that only add bass and/or treble, and it's completely clean unless you hit it hard.

But I totally agree on the lore aspect. Yes, Jamerson used a B-15, but to my knowledge, only when playing live or when recording outside of Motown, where he used a DI, yet the B-15 is firmly associated with the Jamerson sound.

I think I read in a Carol Kaye interview that the Wrecking Crew had owned a few B-15 amps that were strategically placed in music studios all over town, so they would frequently use them - and it has the reputation of being the most recorded amp ever. Even if that's not true, it has been used a lot in the past.

I do think I've read people online claiming the Noble to be like a B15, even though I could never agree with that statement myself because the way I see it, the B15 is all about that edge of breakup thing while the Noble is all about clean headroom for days.

Just to be clear- the Noble is literally a take on a Fender tonestack. Exact same general schematic layout, just with the Mid control fixed internally. The Sadowsky preamp is as well. So not really "shelving" EQ controls in the technical sense, but passive and interactive lossy controls just like the Fender that made that schematic popular for guitar/bass. Personally I don't think that tonestack necessarily causes you to get lost, it really depends on the particular implementation of it and everything else you do with it. My old Mesa 400+ used a modified Fender stack and 100% didn't get lost in distorted guitars- it cut through them like little else I've ever owned!

 

[el murdoque]

Just to be clear- the Noble is literally a take on a Fender tonestack. Exact same general schematic layout, just with the Mid control fixed internally. The Sadowsky preamp is as well. So not really "shelving" EQ controls in the technical sense, but passive and interactive lossy controls just like the Fender that made that schematic popular for guitar/bass. Personally I don't think that tonestack necessarily causes you to get lost, it really depends on the particular implementation of it and everything else you do with it. My old Mesa 400+ used a modified Fender stack and 100% didn't get lost in distorted guitars- it cut through them like little else I've ever owned!

 

[sunbeast]

View attachment 7539914

It is a well-implemented Fender Stack (as is the Sadowsky take), but still very much a Fender stack when you look at the schematics. When we say "Fender tonestack" it's about the actual circuit arrangement rather than specific values of components used (because there have been countless tweaked versions of Fender tonestacks made by Fender itself and a million other companies)- the signal passes through the Treble hi-pass circuit, with the Mid then Bass coming after the Treble towards ground (hence the tone"stack" name). The interactivity of the center of the mid scoop is a tell-tale sign of a Fender tonestack, because it is tied to the Treble potentiometer setting in conjunction with the Mid control. Shelving EQ utilizes a totally different scheme than the Fender tonestack (though there are passive shelves too).

 

[HutHutHuda]

How does the Fifteen handle effects/other pedals?

 

[el murdoque]

How does the Fifteen handle effects/other pedals?

Like all the other Bassrig pedals, It takes other pedals exceptionally well.

Yesterday I learned that especially stacking super low gain drives with the Fifteen gets big and gnarly if you wish it to.
I ran the Audio Kitchen Fake Plastic Trees and the Empress Drive into the Fifteen. The Fifteen was set up so there is no audible grind yet, but saturation is already happening and the grind is not far off. The Drive and the FPT were both set to the edge of breakup. I set them by ear. Plucking the softest kind of a "full note", or "normal playing with a very soft touch" should be clean and breakup should happen once that is exceeded. The Fifteen sounded nice on its own, but it got bigger and badder when one of the others, or even both of them were active.

 

[arepa_funk]

Like all the other Bassrig pedals, It takes other pedals exceptionally well.

Yesterday I learned that especially stacking super low gain drives with the Fifteen gets big and gnarly if you wish it to.
I ran the Audio Kitchen Fake Plastic Trees and the Empress Drive into the Fifteen. The Fifteen was set up so there is no audible grind yet, but saturation is already happening and the grind is not far off. The Drive and the FPT were both set to the edge of breakup. I set them by ear. Plucking the softest kind of a "full note", or "normal playing with a very soft touch" should be clean and breakup should happen once that is exceeded. The Fifteen sounded nice on its own, but it got bigger and badder when one of the others, or even both of them were active.

I do something similarish with the Xotic RC Bass Booster V2. I keep the Fifteen essentially clean with the first RC gain stage always on. Sounds glorious! Round, warm, present, all those vague and accurate. The setting for the second gain stage is slightly higher than the first, so that when I switch it on, the Fifteen goes into beautiful overdrive. In a way, it's like having a separate overdrive switch for the Fifteen. Have only tried it in rehearsal spaces. Hoping to bring it out to gigs whenever we have some scheduled.

 

[el murdoque]

TB user @gillento pulled another one!
Since I still have the Genzler and the Fifteen here that need to be returned, he asked me if I'm interested to receive another pedal he just bought - I said yes and he gave the seller my address instead of his.

This might be an oddball in the international community:

This is the Tackleberry by Weehbo Guitar Products.
It's red and it is made in Germany.
If you wonder what it is, it's a Class-A JFET preamp.