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My inability to keep studying theory...
- Thread starter Katoosie
- Start date
Wellll.... theory is just a way to describe music. It's the meta language of music. There are always going to be examples of great players who got great without learning this meta language, but why cripple yourself?
An analogy would be if a you wanted to be a writer, but didn't want to take a literature or writing class. I mean, sure, some folks are supposedly just naturals, but for every one of those who succeed without learning fundamentals, there are thousands who have spent the hours in the classroom and behind the music stand to become conversant in the basic language and structure of music before they got successful.
Maybe you're blocked on theory being something mysterious and extra, as opposed to it just being a description of music and how things fit together. Or maybe you're happy to spend your career playing blues scale riffs over I-IV-V7 changes. If that's all you need, cool! (But it's still theory! Oops!)
Joking aside, lots of folk, rock, blues etc. musicians have done fine without formal training. You do you. I've got a curious mind and have been a life-long learner. The older I've gotten, the more the theory I learned as a younger student just clicks when I'm playing and writing. I'm absolutely a better musician and writer for having that as a foundation. Of course my music has gotten more complex, too, and maybe that's not your jam.
Point being that you use theory whether you call it that or not, and the more you know, the further your playing and writing can go. thassit.
An analogy would be if a you wanted to be a writer, but didn't want to take a literature or writing class. I mean, sure, some folks are supposedly just naturals, but for every one of those who succeed without learning fundamentals, there are thousands who have spent the hours in the classroom and behind the music stand to become conversant in the basic language and structure of music before they got successful.
Maybe you're blocked on theory being something mysterious and extra, as opposed to it just being a description of music and how things fit together. Or maybe you're happy to spend your career playing blues scale riffs over I-IV-V7 changes. If that's all you need, cool! (But it's still theory! Oops!)
Joking aside, lots of folk, rock, blues etc. musicians have done fine without formal training. You do you. I've got a curious mind and have been a life-long learner. The older I've gotten, the more the theory I learned as a younger student just clicks when I'm playing and writing. I'm absolutely a better musician and writer for having that as a foundation. Of course my music has gotten more complex, too, and maybe that's not your jam.
Point being that you use theory whether you call it that or not, and the more you know, the further your playing and writing can go. thassit.
+1 Esteban Garcia! Music theory isn’t about telling you what or how to play, it’s about defining, categorizing, describing, et al. something that has been played or is prepared to be played, i.e. written. Get familiar with the sound of a phrase, a verse or a song; figure out what makes it distinctive; identify other work that has similar sounds. If you make that a formal exercise you’ve dabbled in music theory.
To me theory is a means to an end so I learn the theory necessary to get where I want to go. When where I want to go changes, I learn the theory for the new goal. It's more fun for me that way.
I think I'm lucky. I started taking lessons when I was about 15. My teacher was primarily a pianist but also a pretty good guitar and bass player. Before we even started rocking, he walked me through scales and modes and basic functional harmony. We spent a few weeks just learning that foundation. And it became the foundation for my understanding of music in the 30-odd years since. An earlier poster talked about theory being the "meta-language" of music. I've always conceptualized it that way, without the "meta." That's how I understand what I'm listening to or playing. I can't imagine what my musical life would be like if I had started off learning licks instead. I wasn't even a good student, but somehow that stuck.
Coming to it later in life, with more formed ideas about music, and with a brutal schedule of intense, critical work, has to be a real challenge. This reminds me of an article I saw today and have in a browser tab now waiting to work my way through it: "The psychologist Alison Gopnik and Ezra Klein discuss what children can teach adults about learning, consciousness and play." (Invalid Link Removed). When I get around to reading it, I speculate it will contain ideas as to how, as adults, we can try to recapture some of that youthful play that is so crucial to learning. You know, in the 15 minutes before that 12-hour shift the OP works
Edit, because I can't stop thinking after I press send:
None of that is to say that you can't find fulfillment playing without knowing theory. Some people have rich, fulfilling musical careers without ever delving into it. And you learn theory by listening and playing, even if you're not thinking about theory. So if what you have bandwidth and inspiration to do is pick up the bass and play along with records, that's great! Maybe theory will follow. Maybe it won't. But there's absolutely no need to feel guilt over it, or to see it as an obligation.
Coming to it later in life, with more formed ideas about music, and with a brutal schedule of intense, critical work, has to be a real challenge. This reminds me of an article I saw today and have in a browser tab now waiting to work my way through it: "The psychologist Alison Gopnik and Ezra Klein discuss what children can teach adults about learning, consciousness and play." (Invalid Link Removed). When I get around to reading it, I speculate it will contain ideas as to how, as adults, we can try to recapture some of that youthful play that is so crucial to learning. You know, in the 15 minutes before that 12-hour shift the OP works
Edit, because I can't stop thinking after I press send:
None of that is to say that you can't find fulfillment playing without knowing theory. Some people have rich, fulfilling musical careers without ever delving into it. And you learn theory by listening and playing, even if you're not thinking about theory. So if what you have bandwidth and inspiration to do is pick up the bass and play along with records, that's great! Maybe theory will follow. Maybe it won't. But there's absolutely no need to feel guilt over it, or to see it as an obligation.
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JeezyMcNuggles
Inactive
- Feb 23, 2018
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You said a year? I learned 2 scales over 22 years. I still know 2 scales. But, I can play over any chord, have an absolute endless supply of new material, pick up off anybody almost instantly, know where the structures going with hardly any if any ques, and nobody has ever once questioned my musical "knowledge"
So, do you yo
There is lots of good advice on here. I'm just going to possibly reiterate some things that people have already said but I think they are important.
- What are your goals? And why? If you aren't sure my suggestion would be play first, analyze later. The way you learn is that your brain needs to make connections. If you have the experience of music first then the theory will make much more sense later.
- Music is fun and social. Knowing theory and ear training will help guide you through new situations, styles and unknown territories easier but again, it starts with the experience first which leads me to.....
- Listen, listen, listen. It's like practice without expending as much energy. Do it actively, think about about why something sounds a certain way, how are the instruments voiced, what do you like? What do you not like? What sounds like tension, release, ugly, beautiful, etc...? Can you figure out what it is on your bass? Find out why it sounds like that. You can call it whatever you want then talk to someone who knows more about theory and find out what it's really called. But the fact that you gave a name means that you own that knowledge and you will learn it that much faster.
- Get a mentor. If you can't find someone send me a PM. I'll set up a video conference call and we can talk about music and music theory. Anyone that wants to join in is welcome to join. I'm happy to help my fellow bass players.
- Last thing. Keep this in mind, playing music is what you do in the moment. Theory is what you talk about after the fact.
drumvsbass
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- Aug 20, 2011
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You only ever need enough theory to play the music that you want to play, any more than that can be dangerous.
I used to be on of those 'either you know your theory, or you don't know
' types. Then I played in a band with a bunch of monster guitarists that had literally no theory background at all and yet still wrote music that was severely complex, challenging, harmonically rich and rhythmically dense. Trying to explain theory to them would have been futile and counterproductive. If you don't know enough to play the music that you are playing, theory can very be exciting as you learn a new set of tools. But, if you know way more theory than you need to play 3 sets of Brown Eyed Girl, music can become painful. Bad taste can ensue, snobbery usually follows. A funny thing I have noticed about bassists is that on the theory front, most seem to think that a doctorate level of theory knowledge is necessary to play anything of worth. That is simply, untrue.
Here is really the bulk of THEORY you need to know.
Major is happy, minor is sad. Emotions are more complex than that, and so is music.
and even then, it's only a theory.
I used to be on of those 'either you know your theory, or you don't know
' types. Then I played in a band with a bunch of monster guitarists that had literally no theory background at all and yet still wrote music that was severely complex, challenging, harmonically rich and rhythmically dense. Trying to explain theory to them would have been futile and counterproductive. If you don't know enough to play the music that you are playing, theory can very be exciting as you learn a new set of tools. But, if you know way more theory than you need to play 3 sets of Brown Eyed Girl, music can become painful. Bad taste can ensue, snobbery usually follows. A funny thing I have noticed about bassists is that on the theory front, most seem to think that a doctorate level of theory knowledge is necessary to play anything of worth. That is simply, untrue.Here is really the bulk of THEORY you need to know.
Major is happy, minor is sad. Emotions are more complex than that, and so is music.
and even then, it's only a theory.
There are some things mentioned on this post that are so true but I also empathize with you about your issues because I had lived in a similar situation, where I varely played and studied bass activelly for an entire year because of full-time exhausting job, when coming back home I have just enought energy and motivation to be just a living dead, living in a "numb mode", not listening even to much music and in my case even trying not to really listen to myself so often. But a year later I saw myself with enought energy to study a degree, work a couple of days a week as a bass teacher (needing time for class preparation), managing and album writting/recording and playing/studying bass and living all by myself. The thing I learned is, the most fulfilling things you have in your routine/life, the most energy you will have for other things and managing when to do them, and of course it worked for me kind of "in a very thin in between line" of being too exhausted and all I mentioned before, so is very important to measure and organize yourself.
But the main thing of this formula is motivation and goals you can achieve so you can keep going. Lack of motivation can be very contagious to other aspects of your life and even it can negatively impact your mental health in a long term, but motivation can be in fact also contagious. keeping it clear I didn't want to sound too Mr. Wonderful on this reply just want to help.
Goals like finding a band, or record some songs finding people that can work with you on those, or even going deeper on a genre from a bass playing perspective if that motivates you. those can be good as soon as you know you can eventually achieve them so playing bass still is a insteresting thing from a psychological perspective, that's very very important, if it's a static thing, you'll eventually lose motivation, and last, losing interest. and like other mentioned, there's nothing bad with that as well but can hurt really deep if it's something that you really like.
Also, as other members said, music theory can be very dead boring if watched only from an very academic perspective (I have musicology background, sometime I got exhausted studying like a living dead, everyone have that kind of days, or weeks), The thing with music is that it's an abstract language from the basis even tho it has structured rules, so when learning/teaching is very important to find the correct words to explain it so you can get into a fast understanding of things. I sugest you to take a song you like and learn it, then start analizing what chords are on the song, what intervals are on each chord, what the fundamental is, is the song on major or minor, what scales are being used, start from little, but be more practical than theorical.
Also If you need some intervals/chords/scales, or even harmony diagrams and notes, I have some of them I've used for my classes so feel free to PM me if you need some of them!
But the main thing of this formula is motivation and goals you can achieve so you can keep going. Lack of motivation can be very contagious to other aspects of your life and even it can negatively impact your mental health in a long term, but motivation can be in fact also contagious. keeping it clear I didn't want to sound too Mr. Wonderful on this reply just want to help.
Goals like finding a band, or record some songs finding people that can work with you on those, or even going deeper on a genre from a bass playing perspective if that motivates you. those can be good as soon as you know you can eventually achieve them so playing bass still is a insteresting thing from a psychological perspective, that's very very important, if it's a static thing, you'll eventually lose motivation, and last, losing interest. and like other mentioned, there's nothing bad with that as well but can hurt really deep if it's something that you really like.
Also, as other members said, music theory can be very dead boring if watched only from an very academic perspective (I have musicology background, sometime I got exhausted studying like a living dead, everyone have that kind of days, or weeks), The thing with music is that it's an abstract language from the basis even tho it has structured rules, so when learning/teaching is very important to find the correct words to explain it so you can get into a fast understanding of things. I sugest you to take a song you like and learn it, then start analizing what chords are on the song, what intervals are on each chord, what the fundamental is, is the song on major or minor, what scales are being used, start from little, but be more practical than theorical.
Also If you need some intervals/chords/scales, or even harmony diagrams and notes, I have some of them I've used for my classes so feel free to PM me if you need some of them!
First off, rest is important. If you are trying to study when you are tired, or when your brain is a mess because of a long work day, things will be difficult and you won't retain stuff.
Thats my biggest problem also, I get tired and mentally I am useless so I'll do most of my practicing when I wake up and my mind is fresh.
All that said, I've taken theory classes in college, and over the years have taken courses or studied theory 1:1 with someone as a refresher and have come to the conclusion that while it is important and even essential, it's also a HUGE black hole you can get sucked into if you aren't careful. What I mean by that is that you can spend a lot of time studying things that may not be required for your playing style or level.
In any case, if your time is limited due to work, being tired, etc...my advice would be to focus on one topic at at time until you feel like you own it, than move on. It may take days, weeks or months...but music is a lifetime journey.
Katoosie,
I have not read the responses to your note, so I apologize if this is just a repetition or does not address your question directly.
We are going through some weird times, so I find it quite normal to get distracted or even not touching your instrument for extended periods, let alone studying theory by yourself. It requires a lot of self-discipline and particularly for those musicians who have day jobs (anything not music-related) it is even a bigger challenge.
If you feel like you want to do this, but do not have the energy and motivation to it by yourself, you might consider taking some online courses. Berklee, for instance, has very well-established online courses, which might force you in the right direction. As regular homework assignments are a must for theory courses, you might find yourself encouraged to get back to it through working on the material as well as peer pressure, communication with the instructor, etc.
At a time when I was not very productive in terms of writing music, I took Steve Rochinski's online reharmonization class under Berklee's curricula. It motivated me a lot and set me "kind of" back on track.
Just food for thought... Good luck.
Alper
I have not read the responses to your note, so I apologize if this is just a repetition or does not address your question directly.
We are going through some weird times, so I find it quite normal to get distracted or even not touching your instrument for extended periods, let alone studying theory by yourself. It requires a lot of self-discipline and particularly for those musicians who have day jobs (anything not music-related) it is even a bigger challenge.
If you feel like you want to do this, but do not have the energy and motivation to it by yourself, you might consider taking some online courses. Berklee, for instance, has very well-established online courses, which might force you in the right direction. As regular homework assignments are a must for theory courses, you might find yourself encouraged to get back to it through working on the material as well as peer pressure, communication with the instructor, etc.
At a time when I was not very productive in terms of writing music, I took Steve Rochinski's online reharmonization class under Berklee's curricula. It motivated me a lot and set me "kind of" back on track.
Just food for thought... Good luck.
Alper
Don't worry too much about it man . I have learnt what theory I needed to understand what I wanted to do at the time . I like to understand how and why things work . If it becomes a chore then let it slide until circumstances change that allow you to do what you want . I was in a similar situation in my younger days with working many jobs , sleeping in the car between jobs as well as family etc etc etc . Never even picked up an instrument until I was 45 . Now it is all done for my entertainment and fun and hence becomes a joy rather than a chore . It will never hurt to step aside for a while .
Kinda depends on your goals and what music you like to play.
Playing rock and roll bass tabs? little to no theory needed.
Writing bass lines in an original band?Some theory would probably help you craft appropriate lines and communicate with the songwriters... but you could certainly get by playing by ear.
Playing Jazz? Theory helps a ton
I think a great way to circumvent “study” it through walking bass. You get the practical application of scale and chord tones as well as strengthening your fingerboard facility and sense of time.
The one other thing I feel is a very helpful is Nashville numbers Especially I IV V. It’s useful for communicating with others, picking out chord progressions and changing tunes to other keys.
best of luck, have fun with it!
Playing rock and roll bass tabs? little to no theory needed.
Writing bass lines in an original band?Some theory would probably help you craft appropriate lines and communicate with the songwriters... but you could certainly get by playing by ear.
Playing Jazz? Theory helps a ton
I think a great way to circumvent “study” it through walking bass. You get the practical application of scale and chord tones as well as strengthening your fingerboard facility and sense of time.
The one other thing I feel is a very helpful is Nashville numbers Especially I IV V. It’s useful for communicating with others, picking out chord progressions and changing tunes to other keys.
best of luck, have fun with it!
If you enjoy playing, I would say focus on that first and foremost. Then, perhaps tackle theory as applied to your playing when appropriate. I didn't get into theory until I started arranging and writing sheet music- so that was my motivation to learn some of it and apply it.
After only a year of playing, you have a long way to go with theory.
I'm still learning theory 40+ years later.
Like anything worthwhile, it takes time and practice.
However you could just bag it and just enjoy playing, unless you're in school, there are no bass theory tests.
Good luck,
Dirk
I'm still learning theory 40+ years later.
Like anything worthwhile, it takes time and practice.
However you could just bag it and just enjoy playing, unless you're in school, there are no bass theory tests.
Good luck,
Dirk
One thing in your original post jumped out at me- that you might try to work on one lesson a day. Unless it’s the same lesson for a week or two or three, it’s too much. You need to put in the time to internalize what you’re trying to learn. It’s not enough to just be understand the concept, you have to absorb it until it’s completely natural in your playing. If you’re relying on online resources for learning, I highly suggest checking out Jim Stinnett’s Real Bass Lessons on youtube. If you watch a few of his videos, you’ll hear him stress the amount of time and repetition that is needed. It’s something I wish I had understood earlier on myself. I can totally relate to being exhausted at the end of the day, and I have been working on some of the same stuff for a long time because I don’t have time to make as much progress as I’d like. Sometimes just being able to pick up the instrument and make some sounds is enough.
Play bass because it's fun. That's what I do. After a long, rough day at work I unwind by playing bass (usually very loudly) for usually 30-60 minutes. After 39 years of playing, I still know very little theory and I really don't care to know. I can't even tell you what notes are in a major scale. I learned which notes sound good together when I was learning songs to play as a kid. I learned a lot from figuring out songs on bass.
Before everyone else rips on me for not even knowing scales or basic theory, I'll have you know that I don't care. Yes, I should learn some theory. I've been in bands since I was 14, and have been in many popular original bands in Milwaukee and have been asked to play in many other bands because of my skills. I've done my share of touring. I've been in cover and wedding bands, and will never go back to that. For me, playing and writing original music is my idea of fun. Like I said before, do this because it's fun. When it stops being fun, then take a break form it.
Before everyone else rips on me for not even knowing scales or basic theory, I'll have you know that I don't care. Yes, I should learn some theory. I've been in bands since I was 14, and have been in many popular original bands in Milwaukee and have been asked to play in many other bands because of my skills. I've done my share of touring. I've been in cover and wedding bands, and will never go back to that. For me, playing and writing original music is my idea of fun. Like I said before, do this because it's fun. When it stops being fun, then take a break form it.
The greats never learned theory, they did however knew the fundamentals and went with it for years to this day!
I hate the word theory anyway. Sounds like you do and that’s cool, keep rockin that bass and looking forward to seeing your second bass!
I hate the word theory anyway. Sounds like you do and that’s cool, keep rockin that bass and looking forward to seeing your second bass!
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