Fail.
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Ya, Bach, Miles, Monk, Bernstein, Ayler, Debussy, Stockhausen, Henry, Oliveros, Schaeffer and so on never learned any theory.
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My inability to keep studying theory...
- Thread starter Katoosie
- Start date
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Ya, Bach, Miles, Monk, Bernstein, Ayler, Debussy, Stockhausen, Henry, Oliveros, Schaeffer and so on never learned any theory.
IvanBassist
Commercial User
- Jun 8, 2008
- 3,744
- 11,128
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- Content Manager at Darkglass Electronics, Dingwall Guitars Artist
The problem with music theory is that it takes a relatively long period of study for it to really really pay off. The gratification is nowhere nearly as instantaneous as downloading some tab to your favorite song and plucking away to your heart's content. It's like learning the reading and the grammar of the English language. Yeah, we can all speak English functionally as children, but it takes years before all that reading and grammar study actually pays off and turns into functionally applicable literacy. It takes a long time and consistent study to become literate with the English language. The same thing goes with the language of music.
If you don't want to put in the time, then just forget about the music theory stuff and move on and have fun with what you know about the bass. Unlike the English language, you're not going to starve if you don't become functionally literate in music, because it sounds like you have a non-music career already, and no time to invest in something that requires a long-term commitment, anyway. There's no shame in that.
If you don't want to put in the time, then just forget about the music theory stuff and move on and have fun with what you know about the bass. Unlike the English language, you're not going to starve if you don't become functionally literate in music, because it sounds like you have a non-music career already, and no time to invest in something that requires a long-term commitment, anyway. There's no shame in that.
If you can, study part time, work part time. Wake up and do the study first when you're fresh, then go do some part time work. I loved being at college. Working full time and trying to study something just doesn't work for me.
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With regards to reference material, this book has totally opened doors and shed light on so many things I've wanted to know for years.
And these two give me tons of practice material.
You may notice I skew toward a particular style in my practice. I love learning the theory and I get high on practicing the exercises. I don't care if I'm good or bad or how long it takes. This music makes my life better and I love everything it takes to learn to play it.
The study, the practice, the playing with bandmates are ends in themselves. To me, any time spent playing music is time well spent, whether it's alone, at rehearsal, or in front of a crowd.
Anyway.
Play what you dig and forget everything else.
BobDeRosa
Commercial User
- May 16, 2012
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There's a big difference between wanting to be something and wanting to immerse yourself in something. Playing bass is one thing and being a musician is another. It sounds as if for some reason you got the urge to be a bass player, even without a whole lot of interest in music. I recommend selling your stuff and finding a more compelling hobby.
The best way to learn theory is to write music. Just reading notation or tab doesn't really require you to know anything more than where the notes are on the instrument - writing and arranging will force you to use and develop your understanding of theory constantly.
For me, studying theory was a dry, intellectual, and thankless pursuit . . . . . UNTIL I began to couple what I was hearing to what I had studied. Once I could then 'see' what I was hearing, it was then a very useful thing.
"What I am struggling with here is my disinterest in learning music theory."
Doesn't seem like there should be any struggle here at all. You don't want to learn music theory. So, don't.
Some of the best advice I've ever gotten is, don't try to be good at something you don't want to do. You can save yourself a lot of time and unnecessary headache by simply being honest with yourself.
Doesn't mean you can't have lots of fun playing your bass when you actually want to, playing in whatever manner actually brings you joy.
Life is short. Personally, I think even *some* knowledge of music theory increases the enjoyment of playing, but if it's literally torturing you mentally as it seems to be, it isn't worth it.
If you aren't pursuing a paid career where hard-learned skills are necessary to succeed, why burden yourself by committing to learning those skills?
Doesn't seem like there should be any struggle here at all. You don't want to learn music theory. So, don't.
Some of the best advice I've ever gotten is, don't try to be good at something you don't want to do. You can save yourself a lot of time and unnecessary headache by simply being honest with yourself.
Doesn't mean you can't have lots of fun playing your bass when you actually want to, playing in whatever manner actually brings you joy.
Life is short. Personally, I think even *some* knowledge of music theory increases the enjoyment of playing, but if it's literally torturing you mentally as it seems to be, it isn't worth it.
If you aren't pursuing a paid career where hard-learned skills are necessary to succeed, why burden yourself by committing to learning those skills?
Glad you're wrong on that one, phew.
I mean.. reading is good and all but you can learn and practice theory in your playing without being able to read notation. The 7 modes of the major scale can be found via Tablature. or you can probably find somewhere to listen to them and play them by ear. And after a bit of time with them you'll start to hear them in music you listen to. C Major is the easy key to remember the notes, but the fingerboard pattern stays the same no matter what key you're playing in.
Better than a fingerboard pattern is remembering the formula. Where w = wholestep and h= halfstep the formula for the major scale is W W H W W W H. I.e. If your index finger was on the 5th fret of the E string, or A, and the next note you played was a B on the 7th fret, you just moved up a whole step. Right? So a half step above that same A on the 5th fret is an A# or the 6th fret.
Natural minor's formula (also the 6th note, mode, chord, in a major key or Aeolian) would be W H W W H W W And if you look at the formula above for Ionian mode aka the major scale and start from the 6th step of the formula, start over after 7 and end on the 5th, it's the exact same pattern.
The majority of, if not all scales have 7 notes. Changing modes is basically changing your root note but playing the same 7 notes or octaves of those notes. The pattern remains the same, the starting point changes.
C Major
C D E F G A B - Ionian - Maj
D E F G A B C - Dorian - min
E F G A B C D - Phrygian - min
F G A B C D E - Lydian - Maj
G A B C D E F - Mixolydian - Dominant 7
A B C D E F G- Aeolian - Natural minor, relative minor of C Major
B C D E F G A - Locrian - b5b7 (Half diminished)
If you were to play those in order with the root notes starting on just the E string, you would cover your fret board from the first and 12th fret. It's worth learning those above the 12th fret as well, though you will have to switch to a root note on the A string at some point unless you had a 24 fret bass.
My first introduction to the modes of the major scale didn't even have this much information. I didn't know they were all connected to the same scale. Had no clue which was minor or major, what a dominant chord was.. but my guitar playing at the time leveled up big time and allowed me to be creative. Since picking up bass I've delved further into it.. and now have a better understanding of what I described above. I learned about "intervals".
Like when translating C Ionian to intervals. C is 1, D is 2, E is 3, F is 4, G is 5, A is 6, B is 7. And this is the basis of those conversations between musicians "it's a 2 5 1 chord progression out of the key of *blank*."
Ionian will always be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. And that set of intervals is the basis for ALL theory. Pentatonic scale, harmonic minor, the names for intervals within these scales are all determined by their relationship to the major scale.
So if Ionian (1 chord) is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7.
When switching modes the root changes. For example - in the example below, G would be the first interval.
Mixolydian (5 chord) is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7. The only difference between the two modes is the flat 7, which is a halfstep below a major 7th. You play the major scale, except for when you get to the 7th note, you play it one halfstep lower. And using Cmaj as an example again, that's exactly what you'd play if you were to play the notes in G Mixolydian - G A B C D E F, where F is the b7. Try it on your bass it will make more sense, write it down in tab if yo need to just to get the patterns under your fingertips.
Once you have a grip on intervals within scale tones.. you're prepped to understand Chord tones.. more commonly, root + 3rd + 5th + 7th. In C Ionian that would be C A G E. You play those notes separately you just played a major 7th arpeggio. A 5 chord/arpeggio (dominant or 7 chord) would be root + 3rd + 5th + b7
You could easily google and find some free information in what the major, minor, flat, diminished, augmented mean in relation to intervals. It is the terminology that defines any scale/key you will ever encounter.
When you hear a chord name like "Cmaj7" it is alluding to the 7th interval being a part of your chord. "add 9" the 9th interval, which is actually just an octave above the 2nd interval.
Imo just pick up your bass.. find a C on your fretboard, and play in alphabetical order with no sharps or flats. Or find tabs outlining the fret positions.. play them. Listen to how they relate to each other. Develop your ear to hear intervals and chord tones.
You can train your ear to identify the relationship between two intervals as well. Over time you'll hear two notes and be like "Oh that's a major 3rd" "Oh that's a 5th"
I could keep writing on this subject for hours and frankly, my knowledge of theory is pretty limited. I can't read notation at any kind of desirable speed. I'd probably have to ask someone to decipher a rhythm on a sheet of paper but if they played it it wouldn't take me long to sync up if it wasn't something I already knew.
But for me my passion all started with a dude writing the 7 modes of the major scale on some notebook paper in tab. That alone held me over for years before I gained more knowledge on the subject.
The scale determines the intervals, which determine the chords that generally work. Anytime you play a chromatic run, you're typically shifting between modes. And none of this is a strict guideline that you absolutely have to follow. Mixing and matching chords with modes and listening to what works and what doesn't is part of the fun. It gets even more fun if you can figure out how to make notes that sound wrong sound like they belong right where you played them.
Don't worry about digesting too much too quick. If you're trying to develop your reading skills at the same time. GREAT. You'll probably advance quicker than I did. But really what it boils down to.. is picking up the bass as often as you feel like you can and working things out, whether it's reading or playing. Even if it's just for 5-15 minutes a day you will make progress if you keep at it.
Better than a fingerboard pattern is remembering the formula. Where w = wholestep and h= halfstep the formula for the major scale is W W H W W W H. I.e. If your index finger was on the 5th fret of the E string, or A, and the next note you played was a B on the 7th fret, you just moved up a whole step. Right? So a half step above that same A on the 5th fret is an A# or the 6th fret.
Natural minor's formula (also the 6th note, mode, chord, in a major key or Aeolian) would be W H W W H W W And if you look at the formula above for Ionian mode aka the major scale and start from the 6th step of the formula, start over after 7 and end on the 5th, it's the exact same pattern.
The majority of, if not all scales have 7 notes. Changing modes is basically changing your root note but playing the same 7 notes or octaves of those notes. The pattern remains the same, the starting point changes.
C Major
C D E F G A B - Ionian - Maj
D E F G A B C - Dorian - min
E F G A B C D - Phrygian - min
F G A B C D E - Lydian - Maj
G A B C D E F - Mixolydian - Dominant 7
A B C D E F G- Aeolian - Natural minor, relative minor of C Major
B C D E F G A - Locrian - b5b7 (Half diminished)
If you were to play those in order with the root notes starting on just the E string, you would cover your fret board from the first and 12th fret. It's worth learning those above the 12th fret as well, though you will have to switch to a root note on the A string at some point unless you had a 24 fret bass.
My first introduction to the modes of the major scale didn't even have this much information. I didn't know they were all connected to the same scale. Had no clue which was minor or major, what a dominant chord was.. but my guitar playing at the time leveled up big time and allowed me to be creative. Since picking up bass I've delved further into it.. and now have a better understanding of what I described above. I learned about "intervals".
Like when translating C Ionian to intervals. C is 1, D is 2, E is 3, F is 4, G is 5, A is 6, B is 7. And this is the basis of those conversations between musicians "it's a 2 5 1 chord progression out of the key of *blank*."
Ionian will always be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. And that set of intervals is the basis for ALL theory. Pentatonic scale, harmonic minor, the names for intervals within these scales are all determined by their relationship to the major scale.
So if Ionian (1 chord) is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7.
When switching modes the root changes. For example - in the example below, G would be the first interval.
Mixolydian (5 chord) is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7. The only difference between the two modes is the flat 7, which is a halfstep below a major 7th. You play the major scale, except for when you get to the 7th note, you play it one halfstep lower. And using Cmaj as an example again, that's exactly what you'd play if you were to play the notes in G Mixolydian - G A B C D E F, where F is the b7. Try it on your bass it will make more sense, write it down in tab if yo need to just to get the patterns under your fingertips.
Once you have a grip on intervals within scale tones.. you're prepped to understand Chord tones.. more commonly, root + 3rd + 5th + 7th. In C Ionian that would be C A G E. You play those notes separately you just played a major 7th arpeggio. A 5 chord/arpeggio (dominant or 7 chord) would be root + 3rd + 5th + b7
You could easily google and find some free information in what the major, minor, flat, diminished, augmented mean in relation to intervals. It is the terminology that defines any scale/key you will ever encounter.
When you hear a chord name like "Cmaj7" it is alluding to the 7th interval being a part of your chord. "add 9" the 9th interval, which is actually just an octave above the 2nd interval.
Imo just pick up your bass.. find a C on your fretboard, and play in alphabetical order with no sharps or flats. Or find tabs outlining the fret positions.. play them. Listen to how they relate to each other. Develop your ear to hear intervals and chord tones.
You can train your ear to identify the relationship between two intervals as well. Over time you'll hear two notes and be like "Oh that's a major 3rd" "Oh that's a 5th"
I could keep writing on this subject for hours and frankly, my knowledge of theory is pretty limited. I can't read notation at any kind of desirable speed. I'd probably have to ask someone to decipher a rhythm on a sheet of paper but if they played it it wouldn't take me long to sync up if it wasn't something I already knew.
But for me my passion all started with a dude writing the 7 modes of the major scale on some notebook paper in tab. That alone held me over for years before I gained more knowledge on the subject.
The scale determines the intervals, which determine the chords that generally work. Anytime you play a chromatic run, you're typically shifting between modes. And none of this is a strict guideline that you absolutely have to follow. Mixing and matching chords with modes and listening to what works and what doesn't is part of the fun. It gets even more fun if you can figure out how to make notes that sound wrong sound like they belong right where you played them.
Don't worry about digesting too much too quick. If you're trying to develop your reading skills at the same time. GREAT. You'll probably advance quicker than I did. But really what it boils down to.. is picking up the bass as often as you feel like you can and working things out, whether it's reading or playing. Even if it's just for 5-15 minutes a day you will make progress if you keep at it.
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As Matty Koff has just beautifully summed up in a few paragraphs , that is my entire theory knowledge from the last 7 years . Way more than i actually need to know to play with other folks a whole lot better than me but it helps me understand . This covers everything that I play from folk to country to ska and punk . And I cant read music and unless I need to for a future project I probably never will . Play the bass and smile when you are doing it my friend . The world is a good place with music in it .
I'd add the following to what you said.
If you are putting time into studying theory but just playing basic cover tunes where you aren't able to fully utilize what you are learning you are "almost" wasting your time.
It's like the years/decades I spent working on jazz theory books but wasn't playing jazz, I was only playing rock and jam band stuff. I had no opportunity to implement what I was learning. It was only when I dialed things back and spent more time with people who wanted to play jazz and get better at jazz that a lot of the stuff I worked on over the years started to click and make sense.
Music should be fun, a release, a celebration. Humans developed music in all cultures, all over the world and theory came much much later.
In most cases when we start playing an instrument, it's because we want to make music, it looks like fun. there are plenty of musicians who prove that music can be played without studying theory. Theory at the beginning of a journey into music can be a bit like those horrible "Tune a Day" books from back in the day. Kids who just wanted to be able to bash out some pop songs like their hero's, being forced to play Twinkle Twinkle and Three Blind Mice over and over, so they gave up on music. All they needed was someone to show them three or four chords so they could strum their favorite tune. Everything beyond that, including learning theory if that seems like it will help, can come later, as knowledge grows, along with the ambition to play more and more complex music. (Sometimes a certain level of knowledge is necessary, before we can know what else we need to learn.)
A lot of the responses here are from players who have studied music and their instrument in a formal setting, often to degree qualification level. Many will be primarily jazz players, no bad thing, but some tend to have developed the view that other forms of music are of a somewhat lower order. Probably without even noticing, they say things like, "Perhaps theory isn't necessary if you only want to play rock or blues music." Of course this overlooks the fact that many of the ground breaking jazz musicians of the past, never studied theory themselves, at least not in the structured curriculum based way students today might.
Nearly all the advice given here is good, but you're the only one who can decide what's right for you, at this time. priorities may change later, but for now do what gives you enjoyment and if the time feels right later to dive back into theory, then that will be the right time.
In most cases when we start playing an instrument, it's because we want to make music, it looks like fun. there are plenty of musicians who prove that music can be played without studying theory. Theory at the beginning of a journey into music can be a bit like those horrible "Tune a Day" books from back in the day. Kids who just wanted to be able to bash out some pop songs like their hero's, being forced to play Twinkle Twinkle and Three Blind Mice over and over, so they gave up on music. All they needed was someone to show them three or four chords so they could strum their favorite tune. Everything beyond that, including learning theory if that seems like it will help, can come later, as knowledge grows, along with the ambition to play more and more complex music. (Sometimes a certain level of knowledge is necessary, before we can know what else we need to learn.)
A lot of the responses here are from players who have studied music and their instrument in a formal setting, often to degree qualification level. Many will be primarily jazz players, no bad thing, but some tend to have developed the view that other forms of music are of a somewhat lower order. Probably without even noticing, they say things like, "Perhaps theory isn't necessary if you only want to play rock or blues music." Of course this overlooks the fact that many of the ground breaking jazz musicians of the past, never studied theory themselves, at least not in the structured curriculum based way students today might.
Nearly all the advice given here is good, but you're the only one who can decide what's right for you, at this time. priorities may change later, but for now do what gives you enjoyment and if the time feels right later to dive back into theory, then that will be the right time.
Don't let theory be an obstacle to learning and enjoying music.
In my view, the "theory" that is discussed in bass circles is a very tiny part of music theory, mainly the analysis of popular songs in pursuit of jazz soloing. Maybe you'd enjoy learning about something else, like classical theory and composition. Possibly the best thing you could do for learning theory is to learn the piano. All college music students are required to learn piano (or keyboard, whatever). Piano makes it easier to learn harmony.
I'm mostly a jazz player. I know people who are trained in theory, and others who aren't, or who struggled with it in school but did not retain it. For performing, it may help you learn improvisation more quickly, but we all get there eventually. Where I think theory makes a big difference is for composition. Everybody I know who is regularly composing, arranging, or transcribing jazz material of any quality understands theory. And like playing, they got good at composing by doing a lot of it.
I'm not trained in theory. It means that I can improvise over most jazz standards that have fairly straightforward harmonies, but I struggle with really modern "weird" harmonies (that I also enjoy a lot). When it gets beyond my knowledge, I have to use other ways of forming a solo line, such as improvising directly on the melody and ignoring the changes. And I don't know how to compose.
Every year, I attend a "Nordic fiddle school" with my family. Some of the oldest and coolest folk music doesn't even fit into mainstream Western harmonic theory. And they love having a bass player.
In my view, the "theory" that is discussed in bass circles is a very tiny part of music theory, mainly the analysis of popular songs in pursuit of jazz soloing. Maybe you'd enjoy learning about something else, like classical theory and composition. Possibly the best thing you could do for learning theory is to learn the piano. All college music students are required to learn piano (or keyboard, whatever). Piano makes it easier to learn harmony.
I'm mostly a jazz player. I know people who are trained in theory, and others who aren't, or who struggled with it in school but did not retain it. For performing, it may help you learn improvisation more quickly, but we all get there eventually. Where I think theory makes a big difference is for composition. Everybody I know who is regularly composing, arranging, or transcribing jazz material of any quality understands theory. And like playing, they got good at composing by doing a lot of it.
I'm not trained in theory. It means that I can improvise over most jazz standards that have fairly straightforward harmonies, but I struggle with really modern "weird" harmonies (that I also enjoy a lot). When it gets beyond my knowledge, I have to use other ways of forming a solo line, such as improvising directly on the melody and ignoring the changes. And I don't know how to compose.
Every year, I attend a "Nordic fiddle school" with my family. Some of the oldest and coolest folk music doesn't even fit into mainstream Western harmonic theory. And they love having a bass player.
Hi Katoosie! Thanks for your thread, I can relate a lot to your feelings regarding music theory!
If that can help you, it seems that music theory, or at least Western music theory, do not manage perfectly all the range of acoustic frequencies. There is a little bug is the intervals system, and they don't make perfect mathematical sense. So, there is no shame if you can't get this arbitrary system!
Wolf interval - Wikipedia
Don't let you discourage by cranky elitists gatekeepers. You can play by ear, catching some pieces of theory you might need, and you will be awesome ^^
If that can help you, it seems that music theory, or at least Western music theory, do not manage perfectly all the range of acoustic frequencies. There is a little bug is the intervals system, and they don't make perfect mathematical sense. So, there is no shame if you can't get this arbitrary system!
Wolf interval - Wikipedia
Don't let you discourage by cranky elitists gatekeepers. You can play by ear, catching some pieces of theory you might need, and you will be awesome ^^
