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My regret as a bass player

When I started playing several thousand years ago, like everyone else we did covers. We decided early on that doing our versions of songs, picking "B sides" from singles and albums, and having a stage persona that people enjoyed watching was our path. We each had our own shtick and I always played my own bass parts. We got pretty good at it and had a strong regional following for a number of years and got to play with our share of big time acts.

My son is a pro touring musician - a percussionist/drummer in off-broadway national tours, etc - where sight reading and precision playing is a must. Aside from the music-loving gene I passed to him, my other gift was to show him old videos of Dino Danelli. As a result my son is not only enjoyable to listen to, but also enjoyable to watch :)
 
Great post, Jimmy.

I'm 56, and I, too, wanted to be the furthest out bassist on the planet when I started, way back in 1970. In 1983, I had a traumatic but eventually constructive, experience: I had been playing, recording and touring with a folk-rock singer/songwriter, and I imagined myself as Jaco playing with Joni Mitchell. Secretly, I felt that I was THE guy making the whole thing interesting. Then, I heard from the singer/songwriter (who was also a great friend by then) that the person producing us thought I was the weak link, and should be replaced, because I was "all over the place."

It was a crushing blow at the time, but I resolved to remake myself as the solidest, "most value to the note" guy on the planet. After a while, I was getting compliments from many fellow musicians-- "You're MY kind of bass player"; "I never get lost when I'm playing with you"; "You're so SOLID, and that's the most important thing"; etc. It got to the point where some people were occasionally begging me to play MORE, and I got a certain evil satisfaction out of that. Also, I learned that a guy who played constructive, solid bass AND could sing well had a much better chance of simply keeping the gigs coming. So, I had to lose the "bass virtuoso" self-image and think more of myself as a "utility man" (to borrow a sports term). It was "sit at home and perfect the chops" vs. "get out there now and make music"... I chose the latter path.

Then, in 2009, I reunited for one show and one studio recording with a bunch of bop & fusion guys I played with when I was 20 and 21, during my "exploratory" phase. I had to relearn the tunes by listening to old tapes. The thing was, I couldn't believe I had so much energy and imagination back then... I sounded like a different person. Plus, I now had some difficulty actually pulling off some of the stuff, physically.

BUT... after some practice, I was okay, and not only could I revisit the younger me, but the music sounded better than it ever did because I was able to add the "solid" quality. The funkier stuff actually grooved now, whereas it used to sound like skittish noodling.

So... I think you can reach a point where all of the peaks and valleys of your playing and learning experience can eventually sum up to something useful, and gratifying.

(The scary guys are the ones who have it all, at a very young age!)
 
Wow, Jimmy!!

Well said.
We each have our own contribution.
A wise woman once said we are unique not original.
We each have our own voice which is harder, sometimes, to cultivate than learning music theory and chops.

My path was to grow in another profession that I love. It has allowed me to play concerts and choose the gigs I want. I often hire slamming local pro musicians who are shocked to get paid playing original music. By juggling several bands, like you elude to, I can be quite busy. That they are of different genres makes for freshness.

Anyway we have lots of choices. For me finding and expressing my own voice is most satisfying. Those bassists we consider amazing each expresses his own voice. It may help all of us to attract fellow players who are in the process of being themselves. As lucrative as it can be you're not going to get praise for your own voice in an Eagles tribute band.:)

There is a balance. If you're a working pro you play what pays you.
I did focus on providing the strong moving dance pulse. Before that the trebly effect laden solo stuff had my focus. It wasn't so bad to remember where and what we are to provide.

That root thing doesn't have to be boring! :)
 
Wow Jimmy!!
1st off...the fact that you sat down late at nite and hammered that out just goes to show you are WAY creative. And I enjoyed That read VERY much.
Since they put in 429 I live less than an hour away from your area and someday I would like to catch you at a gig and buy your libations for the eve!!

I'm 55 and started playing in 1971. tried to be a singer in a gospel group...they told me I couldn't sing but did I want to play bass? Why not! And 42 yrs later here we are.
Abraham Laboriel was the first real creative player I got hooked on. Guitar player I knew was smoking some ditchweed and listening to Lee Ritenour "feel the night" LP.
Steve Gadd on drums. Laboriel and Gadd trade 4's on a song called French Roast.
Well....ya'll know what that ditch weed does to your listening powers.....blowed me away.
Yes I was pulled into the bass borg....got very good at being a borg. The borg (and I knew someone who was workin for someone...) got me to places I would never have dreamed of.
I too think I cant play half the chops I used to play. And yes everyone said why don't you just settle down and play bass?
I don't play much anymore due to my day gig....but I still get called out occasionally. and enjoy readin you guys here on tb.
Just wanted to say thanks for saying what I obviously lack the creative skills and conviction to express.
thanks Jimmy!!
 
My style has been and will always be the maximum use of minimalism. Mostly due to lack of talent but it's served me well for 27 years. Tone and pocket have always been my focus and the main reason drummers, geetar players, and lead singers love me.
Regardless of playing style to be succesful it's important to be true to yourself.
 
Remember, there is nothing wrong with working a day job to support your music. I know Andy West of the Dregs quit to work in computers for a while, and he might still be doing that for his main pay check. Even Percy Jones, one of the all time greats, has worked in his wife's floral shop to make ends meet.
 
Well done Jimmy! I love to read about Gary Thain influencing players, he sure influenced me! I too have been told in the past that I over played or was "too technical for their band". Now I concentrate on the groove and play from my heart and enjoy the experience!

Cheers,
Jim
 
...Especially first and last paragraphs of JimmyM.s opening .


KID.. YOUNG FOLK AND NEWBIES....This thread is the TRUTH; not a discouragement, as there are new discoveries every year.

Typically 'overnight sensations ' take about 10-12 years of hard work..'paying your dues' first unless you are star-struck lucky. Liklihood of being and STAYing in one band that long is exponentially unlikely for most.

Best wishes...
 
So what's stopping you Jimmy from starting a new journey right now? Do it DO IT DOOOOO EEEEEETTTTTT!!!!!

Seriously, with your experience to roll into your playing, all you need is to dust off your rusty writing chops and get back on the horse. I bet the tunes and playing you make today will blow away the younger you. Music is one of the few things we can all get better at as we age.

The focus people have on "making it" is displaced. It should be on "making good music" whatever that is to you. The world would be better for it.

It's never too late to be true to yourself.
 
So here's a thread I could only start late at night after one of my gigs...

When I was a kid just starting on bass in the 70's, I didn't want to be someone who sat in the back pounding out roots. Still don't, either. I wanted to sing and I wanted to play my ass off. When it came to bass player influences, back then I was all about John Entwistle, Chris Squire, Mel Schacher, Bootsy, Ronnie Lane, Gary Thain, Louis Johnson, Mars Cowling...all the players who demanded attention be called to their great bass playing. Later in my teens, I expanded to jazzier guys like Stanley Clarke, Andy West, Jaco, etc. Loved punk rock and butt rock as well, but was way more interested in Bruce Thomas and Graham Maby than I was Dee Dee Ramone, though I've always had a special fondness for Cliff Williams and Gene Simmons. But for the music I wanted to make, I wanted to use effects, I wanted to be loud, and I wanted to be entertaining and fun to watch.

Then I got out into the world of trying to find bands to play out. I'd jam with people and I'd get, "You play really well but you overplay," or "We're not looking for a lead bassist" or "Can't you just play the song and quit hopping around?" My favorite, though, was when I'd write songs and show them to everyone else, and they'd say, "Sounds like a bass player wrote these songs."

Wow, cold reality slapping me in the face with a dead fish! I determined that I wasn't going to get anywhere by being an awesome shredder (or whatever we called it back then), and I would strive to overcome the overplaying rap I had with being a dependable bassist who played the cover songs like they're supposed to be played and wrote songs that didn't feature the bass playing so much. I ended up staying fairly busy most of the time and it was cool.

But over time, and it took me a long time to realize it, I lost the qualities that made me unique and fun to listen to when I was just starting out, and I got assimilated into the Borg. I tried to write people-pleasing songs that sounded like whatever was current in rock and roll, and none of them had the flashy bass playing of the earliest stuff I did when I was trying to please myself above all else. As a result, nothing I did stood out from the pack, and it was all just OK and kind of boring and was treated as such by audiences.

Meanwhile, a whole slew of bassists with flashy chops who stuck to their guns were the ones really getting out there and making a name for themselves professionally. And by the time I realized I lost the spark, well let's face it...nobody was looking for me at my age. And now at 52, I still love and play music and have a lot of fun doing it and my band is quite well-respected on the 50's-60's-70's oldies circuit, but it only occasionally requires chops playing, and there are a few thousand bass players out there who can play bass in my stead, though if I whittle out the bass players who can't sing good harmonies and a decent lead, we're down to maybe a couple thousand.

Why am I spilling my guts like this? It's because I know some kids with talent and a dream like I once had are coming onto Talkbass every day, and one day they're going to post something about wanting to be unique and play in a unique style that's different from the norm. And I know the Bass Borg on here is going to tell them that they need to settle down, learn how to play simple repetitive lines, and know their role as a bass player.

And kids, if you're reading this, I want you to completely disregard anything they have to say about bass playing from there on out. I'll be the first to tell a young bass player that if they can't play "Back In Black" or "No Ordinary Love" without a solid groove that their work developing into a great bass player is far from over. I'll also be the first to tell them the realities of getting a paycheck from playing music, and that is if you're looking for people to hire you, give them what they want in return for the money you want or they will find someone else.

But you know what? When you're on your own time, you can do whatever the heck you want. No law says you can't do two or more bands at once. No law says you can't make yourself the star attraction. Pursue your vision to its fullest no matter whether it's being a solid dependable bassist in someone's working cover band or writing and recording the music in your head no matter how out there it may seem to some. Search for like minded musicians that are as interested in your vision as you are. If you can't find like minded musicians, do it yourself. Learn to play and program other instruments, or just do it all with your bass if you'd rather. And don't make any apologies about wanting to be a badass, stay true to your vision, and most of all, ignore those bass players who tell you how you should be playing.

If I could do one thing over again, I would have never made apologies about wanting to be a badass. The music business is such that I likely would have ended up right where I'm at anyway, but I'll never know now. So as I close in on AARP membership, I'm going to follow my own advice. Not quitting my gig or anything, but off the gig, I'm going to have fun with making my own music my own way for my own self-gratification. And I won't ever reach Bieber status with it but it's going to be one of a kind, and all of the soul-sucking forces out there who think I should fulfill their idea of what I should be doing as a bass player can suck their own souls. And if my music is polarizing and a lot of people don't like it, I will remind myself that there are 5000 bass players who could be the bass player with Bieber, but there is only one Les Claypool. It's pretty much a given that I won't ever reach Claypool status, but I will have fun making music my own way, and that's all he ever cared about, and that's all I care about.

So if there's one piece of advice I could pass along to bass players whose vision of music is unique and different and doesn't fulfill the typical bass "role," it's this (cue stirring marching music)...

The odds of you being a famous musician are astronomically against you no matter what you do, but if you have something that makes you unique, you will at least be the only person in the world from which they can get your special brand of music delivered in a style only you can deliver. Do what you feel you must in order to pay the bills, but pursue that uniqueness to its fullest whenever you can, have as much fun as humanly possible with it, and don't ever lose it no matter who tells you it's no good and won't sell. You can be one of a kind or one of many. It's up to you.

quoted for awesomeness.
 
Thank you for this post! It was FANTASTIC!

My two cents: I have noticed that the ones who b$%ch the most about a bass player "overplaying" are typically the keyboardist, the singer, and the lead guitar player. I have never had a drummer complain to me that I was overplaying -- in, fact it was always the drummers who wanted me to do more. It was always the guys wanted to have ALL of the spotlight who were the ones getting upset.

I think that we, as bass players, get criticized a lot because they know that a killer bass line stands out like nothing else and it carries the rhythm and feel like nothing else. Thus, the other "lead" guys feel threatened, in a way. Of course, if as a bass player you are playing nothing but a bunch of inconsiderate noise that is all over the place without being in rhythm, then you just might deserve to be scolded. But usually, I think we are forced in a corner and we need more bass players to stand up for themselves. WAR!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Jimmy,

Like you, I always wanted to forge my own path as a bassist, and like you I caught an amazing amount of hell for it years ago. I heard stuff like "you solo from one end of the song to the other", which was patently untrue - I tended to play a lot like Mark King, with very, very busy but also very, very grooving bass lines. I made the crowd *move*, which I always thought was my job.

I stepped away from live performance for a number of years during my first marriage (to a total psycho). After my divorce, when I came back to the music scene I discovered that I was all of the sudden incredibly in demand - I am currently playing in four different bands and subbing regularly in a couple of others (yes, scheduling creates some issues occasionally). These days more mature musicians want me because of my chops, not in spite of them.

I can tell you this - do NOT give up on doing exactly what you want with no compromise. I used to be obsessed with bass (6 - 10 hours a day over the summer months while in high school), and though the time isn't there for those kinds of marathon sessions these days, I push myself *harder* now than ever before. I have a daily practice regimen, each day concentrating on something new (or a particular technique that I am having troubles with), and am pushing my technique and my ear to new levels in an organized, measurable way.

In fact, a few days ago the local band director (who is also a bassist I have been giving some instruction to) was overheard by my daughter (she plays bari sax in the jazz band - she loves how the bass *moves* people - just like her daddy) telling a guest guitar instructor about me - his comment was something akin to, "If you looked back over the history of that guy's life, you would find a contract with the devil. NOBODY plays bass like that without a contract."

I just turned 44 years old. It isn't too late - it's never too late. You can take the reins as THE respected bass player, the guy that all of the young guys run to for advice and want to emulate. YOU can be the guy who inspires them to never settle, never give up, never compromise - to always be true to themselves. You have the power to prevent younger players from making the same mistakes, and I applaud you for starting it right here on Talkbass.

Now, my bass-playing brother - take out your bass and shred. Aspiring young players are counting on you! :bassist:

----
Kurt
 
Ironically the sang How Long Has this Been Going on is allegedly about a bassist playing in a second band.

Every time I check Craigs there's a prog band getting together. While the money may be in playing Just Like Heaven and FreeBird there's other stuff out there.

I lost my friend Paul from Andover number but he had a band pushing the limits.
 
Thank you for this post! It was FANTASTIC!

My two cents: I have noticed that the ones who b$%ch the most about a bass player "overplaying" are typically the keyboardist, the singer, and the lead guitar player. I have never had a drummer complain to me that I was overplaying -- in, fact it was always the drummers who wanted me to do more. It was always the guys wanted to have ALL of the spotlight who were the ones getting upset.

I think that we, as bass players, get criticized a lot because they know that a killer bass line stands out like nothing else and it carries the rhythm and feel like nothing else. Thus, the other "lead" guys feel threatened, in a way. Of course, if as a bass player you are playing nothing but a bunch of inconsiderate noise that is all over the place without being in rhythm, then you just might deserve to be scolded. But usually, I think we are forced in a corner and we need more bass players to stand up for themselves. WAR!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes and no. It might be that the drummers don't complain because they aren't contributing anything melodic, which could be stepped on or sabotaged by the bass player.
Also, I've worked a lot with a female singer who is a contralto-- a low range. I've always needed to leave a lot of space for her because it's simply hard for her to hear herself with me also occupying that area.
Finally, the "lead" guys, if they're musical, might be trying to "tell a story", and how annoying is it to have someone step on your "punchline"? I think we've all had the experience of looking forward to contributing an especially clever fill on the 8th or 16th bar, only to have the drummer obliterate it with a loud fill of his own, in that spot. Knowing this, I'm careful to listen to everyone and leave space at those junctures, only jumping in when it's "polite" to do so.
Not bragging... just sharing some experience...
 
Thanks, Jimmy! I'm 62 and resumed gigging in '86 after a 10 year hiatus to start a career and raise a family. I know the feeling of listening to old tapes from the early 70's when I may have been more daring and inventive. These days, in addition to writing my own tunes, it's mainly three bands: basic classic country and rock oldies, an acoustic duo, fill-in with two local blues band. But, at times, I like to step out of my comfort zone and jam with some of the young cats. Covers can pay bills but originals and learning from the newbies can be very mind-cleansing and renewing. Young bassists, listen to the past masters, learn from them, build and be true to your own music, too!
 
Sounds like you are making excuses now as you always have. "When I was young nobody wanted me to experiment" ... "Now I am too old to experiment". I won't see why you couldn't start now if that's what you value most.

If you want to make money working for others, its most effective to play the numbers game and focus on what most other people are looking for. For many that means sacrificing what you personally want to focus on. That's pretty much life as someone who needs to work for a living and not really unique to bass playing.. Everyone has to balance their own risk tolerance with their level of freedom. There's nothing to regret about being able to feed your kids.

No regrets. You must be an Edith Piaf fan.

I may be wrong but anyone who gets through life with no regrets has never had to make a difficult choice.

I don't see that as a life well lived.
 
Great post Jimmy I agree and I have always followed my own path. I could play it note for note after 46 years of playing bass very few songs are difficult for me to play however, I chose to take it to the next level never caring if other bass players like or not by adding my on lines to some classic rock songs. I have been writing and recording since I was 13 years old and that is when I laid down my first lines in a real recording studio. My background is I went for private bass lessons for 10 years. When I was in my mid 20's my original band was consider a hairband for our looks but we were writing songs more like Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath. We were signed and coming up when Grudge hit and the bottom fell out but I never went to just playing root notes to please anyone and I have been asked to write bass lines for many people's projects in my time including Sharman Howe, Alfred Nittoli, and Artie Schroeck who penned "Here's to the band" for Frank Sinatra. I'm 55 and still rocking the bottom my way and before you ask if I over play hell no I better than that but I am creative enough to add a line that breathes life into a song.