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My regular soundman doesn't like my sound

Apr 11, 2005
127,257
125,180
Plymouth NC
Disclosures
Endorsing: Yamaha, Ampeg, Line 6, EMG
We work with a great soundman fairly often on our local gigs, and he ran monitors for us on Monday night's gig. The FOH guy on that gig told me he thought Gary Puckett's bassist (great jazz/funk influenced player...Woody Lingle from Nashville) had a better sound than I did. He used a 5-string Dean Sledgehammer that looks like a Warwick Thumb and has a MM style pickup in the usual position, and sounds much like a Stingray. I used an SX P with flats. He used my SVT but DI'd full range into FOH and I mic'ed. I thought the FOH guy was nuts to tell me that because I thought I sounded absolutely fantastic :bassist: And he's one of those guys who likes all that smooth jazz twang on the high end, so you can't go by what they say.

So I asked my buddy at tonight's gig where he ran FOH if all soundmen hate my tone, and though he was nice about it, the insinuation was that yes, they do. Apparently they're not big fans of the 125-200 hz range I like to boost slightly, and they're not big fans of the SVT low end rolloff at around 55 hz. He likes having access to those freqs so he can make the sound bigger, and he claims I'm overwhelming the rest of the band with too much midbass that he can't dial out when needed, and I'm making it sound a little boxy with too many upper mids. I definitely like an accented midbass just because it makes for a fatter Cliff Williams low end and enables me to sound really heavy, and I like the so-called boxy freqs so I can hear each note.

But he's a great soundman and has the best interests of the band at heart, so I took his advice and flattened out the bass knob (but not quite) and backed off ever so slightly from the mids, and when I listened to it in the crowd, I thought I had a near-perfect sound during the show which was better than the sound out there at soundcheck. I kind of missed the midbass onstage, but he was right...it was overwhelming the mix. And reducing the upper mids a little prettied it up without getting lost in the mix. That's a real fine line, though, so we'll have to take it on a case by case basis. He's still not entirely happy so Friday he's doing another gig with us at the same joint, so we'll run 2 lines and I'm going to try his idea with the low end, though my experiences with too much low have not been good.

So you see...those of you who think I just run roughshod over soundmen and make their lives a living hell are quite wrong. I am a sweetheart :D If a soundman has a problem, I'm always willing to hear them out and act accordingly. I'm the final judge, but I'll hear them out.
 
hmmmmm. sounds like someone's about to split di direct from bass :hiding:

blending the two signals foh is what i prefer. when the engineer is willing (i.e., not lazy/stubborn) this can be fantastic and keep everyone happy.
 
hmmmmm. sounds like someone's about to split di direct from bass :hiding:

blending the two signals foh is what i prefer. when the engineer is willing (i.e., not lazy/stubborn) this can be fantastic and keep everyone happy.

My thoughts exactly. No offense Jimmy M but you are always the big fan of micing your cab or running a DI post EQ. Alot of guys who play bass and run sound [me included] think this is wrong. Either use an external DI or use the internal one pre EQ. You are playing gigs far enough up the food chain where the Soundmen should be competent and know what they are doing.
 
Jimmy,

Thanks for sharing, it's not easy or often that us bass players will admit less then stellar reviews.

I've got this theory that I want my on stage sound to sound exactly how it is going to most benefit ME. An inspiring tone that makes me comfortable, which allows me to relax, play better and enjoy the gig. This doesn't always coincide with what is best for the soundman and the front of house sound.

What I do generally is let the soundman take a Pre signal directly from my head and if I have confidence in his abilities he will do what he needs to do to make it work in the house. Sometimes even that freaks out a soundman and he wants to use HIS DI box and even if it's crap I tend to let them do what they want. I know I am getting the best possible tone from my bass and my amp is getting me what I want to hear.

I recently did a gig with a real greenhorn soundman who insisted on using the cheapest possible Whirlwind DI, I offered him the direct out from my EA head and he freaked out. I told him if I tune between songs he's got to mute me because I lose control the way he decided to go. I also offered him my radial box which he looked at like it was alien, which scared the heck out of me. He also had some trouble getting our monitor mix right and a few people really busted his chops about it.

Between sets a friend who fills in for me from time to time showed up and I asked her to play a few tunes. Bottom line I was very impressed with my FOH tone when she played.

Sounds to me based on everything I've read from you in the past that the A designs REDDI would be the perfect solution for your needs, although fairly pricy.
 
many thoughts here. based on being on both sides, and participating in a few threads in this section.

these are general thoughts, not directed at JimmyM or anyone in particular.

i still do not get this fascination with ampeg. iirc back in the mid 80's to mid 90's they sounded dull, and looked dull. i havent really seen anything change. market saturation doesnt make something sound good. i dont care how many full color ads you put in bassplayer. GK, hartke, and swr and later eden and the others delivered us out of the mud and into what a bass could sound like. somehow ampeg has made this comeback that i personally dont get. if its your thing or anyone elses so be it. taste is a subjective thing.

to those that like to slag soundguys, and insist on "their tone" with a mic.: you don't really hear what the house hears and maybe you need to rethink it a little. find a compromise. trust your soundguy a little.
 
I've had this problem too. The sound guy at a venue I regularly play at told me once that he wanted to get more of a "p-bass thump" out of my bass. My Jazz bass.....
 
OK, first off, I ain't givin' up the mic or the Ampegs so you can take that silly notion right out of here. I didn't put this thread up so I can be told I'm doing everything all wrong when I'm clearly not.

Second, my sound is almost always awesome. The only reason it was a little less than stellar for the past couple gigs is because I was using flats this week and wasn't used to what they do to my EQ.

Third, if you notice the happy ending where my sound was near perfect after adjusting, you will see that it wasn't such a big deal that it couldn't be overcome using the methods I prefer.

I'm a little sorry I posted this thread now. I only wanted to prove that I'm flexible and not totally unbending. There's nothing at all wrong with the way I do things.
 
It's disheartening when you have such a cool rig like a vintage SVT which sounds awesome to you - but everyone else thinks it could sound better. I think some flexibility is warranted by both the soundman and the bassist in a live setting (especially on stage volume control) but when it comes to tone/EQ, the soundman should work to reinforce what it is you are trying to project within the band. Unfortunately, many don't see it that way. I'm almost scared to see what happens now that I plan on running my Portaflex with the oldies band. I was hoping to try micing it but will probably end up with the DI.
 
Jimmy,

Thanks for sharing, it's not easy or often that us bass players will admit less then stellar reviews.

I've got this theory that I want my on stage sound to sound exactly how it is going to most benefit ME. An inspiring tone that makes me comfortable, which allows me to relax, play better and enjoy the gig. This doesn't always coincide with what is best for the soundman and the front of house sound.

What I do generally is let the soundman take a Pre signal directly from my head and if I have confidence in his abilities he will do what he needs to do to make it work in the house. Sometimes even that freaks out a soundman and he wants to use HIS DI box and even if it's crap I tend to let them do what they want. I know I am getting the best possible tone from my bass and my amp is getting me what I want to hear.

I recently did a gig with a real greenhorn soundman who insisted on using the cheapest possible Whirlwind DI, I offered him the direct out from my EA head and he freaked out. I told him if I tune between songs he's got to mute me because I lose control the way he decided to go. I also offered him my radial box which he looked at like it was alien, which scared the heck out of me. He also had some trouble getting our monitor mix right and a few people really busted his chops about it.

Between sets a friend who fills in for me from time to time showed up and I asked her to play a few tunes. Bottom line I was very impressed with my FOH tone when she played.

Sounds to me based on everything I've read from you in the past that the A designs REDDI would be the perfect solution for your needs, although fairly pricy.
Actually, Peter, the VT Bass pedal would do it for me. And in some situations where I don't have my amps, I use it. But when I have these vintage Ampegs up there, I want their sound out in the house mic'ed. I'd rather adjust the amp so the soundman can use it easier than sacrifice micing it. That's one thing I'm not going to be flexible about.

Besides, this was all because I'm not used to flats in a live situation. Once I get used to them again, there won't be any problem. I just needed to be informed of the problem.
 
Some players and the genres of music are so unique in today's music. Try playing most modern rock where so many effects are being used things don't come out sounding right when a soundman is using a DI before the amp.
And for a while now, there are quite a few players showing up with two amps: one clean, one dirty and effects mixed between both. So no, a DI before the amp is never going to be the 'correct way'.
 
Jimmy ---

Hats off--- quite the mature thread.

You and I have quibbled back and fourth over this topic periodically.

Guess it would be a good juncture to point out (to lurker) that this may be just a Spectrum issue for the room that needed to be mated toward. May be good to also point out that you did it right by not fighting sound guys who always win.

---------------------

Sillier thing...
I hate my tone.. do things so I can hate it more --- the sound guys and band mates love it the less mids and highs I put out... for fun I'll throw in a graphite active bass to periodically jar them to what a great guy I am for having band mix slotted output.

-------------

Thanks for posting this Jimmy
 
Actually, Peter, the VT Bass pedal would do it for me. And in some situations where I don't have my amps, I use it. But when I have these vintage Ampegs up there, I want their sound out in the house mic'ed. I'd rather adjust the amp so the soundman can use it easier than sacrifice micing it. That's one thing I'm not going to be flexible about.

Besides, this was all because I'm not used to flats in a live situation. Once I get used to them again, there won't be any problem. I just needed to be informed of the problem.

Jimmy,

That sounds like a plan to me...As long as you don't have to sacrifice your stage sound to get the sound guy what he needs all is good. I guess where I've run into problems is when I come across a stage layout that needs drastic EQing and the tone is just so off the wall that it makes the soundguy nuts. Hollow stage or brick walls on the sides mostly.

I didn't realize you recently went to flats, my reading comprehension skills stink...I recent did a gig with my Alleva P bass and Jamerson flats and I could not believe how much low mids were being pushed out in the FOH, it was much more dramatic then what I was hearing on stage. In that case to not sacrifice my stage tone I just asked the sound guy to knock them back on the board and all was good.
 
Man, I want an Alleva P...a friend has a 5-string Jazz that's light as a feather. But the SX was $110, so hey ;)

And it's my fault...I really didn't make it clear that I was using flats and just did it for the past few gigs. I've used them off and on for a few years now, but not since I went back to the SVT. Should have explained that better but who can type at 1 am anyway? ;)

Thanks for all the comments, guys...well, thanks to some of you. Could have done without the Ampeg and mic bashing.
 
Apparently they're not big fans of the 125-200 hz range I like to boost slightly, and they're not big fans of the SVT low end rolloff at around 55 hz. He likes having access to those freqs so he can make the sound bigger, and he claims I'm overwhelming the rest of the band with too much midbass that he can't dial out when needed, and I'm making it sound a little boxy with too many upper mids.
I prefer to boost 450 Hz on my 2pro, but I do like the 55 Hz roll off on the 810. I think it keeps things cleaner. Besides, my subs at FOH roll of at 45Hz.

How does you soundman feel about the speaker DI either by itself or blended with the mic?