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My regular soundman doesn't like my sound

#41
Simply because the sound from your amp is great onstage doesn't mean it's awesome at the back of the house or wherever the soundman is. P A cabinets react differently than bass cabinets, and microphones do as well. The size and architecture of the house changes the sound. If having yoiyr bass ound ezxactly the way it does out of yoyr amp is critical to you, it's best to sit down with the band and the soundcrew and reach a consensus. Personally, I trust the FOH people to make the bass sound good through the PA, and if I have clarity and punch onstage, I'm happy. I heard Chris Squire with Yes last July and I thought his Rickenbackers sounded horrible through the PA -- overwhelming clank with little definition and no punch. I can't believe that's the way the bass sounded onstage, but maybe it did. If I were Chris, I would not have been satisfied. The best bass sound I've heard recently was Nate Query of the Decemberists, and he's using a small amp onstage that he runs just loud enough to hear himself. The rest is all DI.
 
#42
JimmyM said:
BTW, just for clarification, these weren't Bowzer gigs...they were gigs with my regular band opening for Gary Puckett the first night, and a gig by ourselves the second at another venue. Bowzer ain't opening for Gary Puckett. He likes him a lot, but he's not opening. And yes, he is ultra-quick to let me know when what I'm doing isn't working for him.

But modulusman is just mad that I rejected his notion that using a mic on a cab is always the wrong thing to do, so he was just trying to discredit me to push his own agenda. Not sure why he thinks the way I do things is wrong when it's worked for over a year now, but there you have it.

EDIT: Jack, I love the X2 and think it sounds every bit as good as a cable, but I respect your right to think it doesn't. We have a pretty high energy show that often requires "antics" on my part so the wireless is pretty common on my gigs. But if I don't need the antics, I usually use a cable.
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My agenda is that as a bass player who also has spent alot of time as soundman I would rather have a PRE-EQed signal to work with. This way the bass player can get his sound on-stage and I have something that is easy to work with out front. Believe it or not most of the audience is not paying attention to any thing but the vocals. Chances are the only people in the whole venue that care what the bass sounds like are the bass player and the soundman.
 
#43
Great thread. I was just complimented at practice last night by a new drummer, regarding how well my tone fit in the mix. I'm usually a very twangy in-front player (see the user name), but have definitely grown into the 'right tone for the right gig' mentality. Sometimes ya have to swallow your pride and listen to others - and more importantly, the music/song.

This combination cracked me up. Know what you mean, just funny on the surface -
I only wanted to prove that I'm flexible and not totally unbending. There's nothing at all wrong with the way I do things.
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:D
 
#44
modulusman said:
........Believe it or not most of the audience is not paying attention to any thing but the vocals. Chances are the only people in the whole venue that care what the bass sounds like are the bass player and the soundman.
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The average listener might not notice all the details when everything sounds great but when something is off even an average listener knows something is wrong.

Regardless if this is a true statement or not it's no excuse to not strive to get the very best possible tone you can whenever you pick up your bass, be it while practicing, at a rehearsal or on a gig...
 
#45
modulusman said:
My agenda is that as a bass player who also has spent alot of time as soundman I would rather have a PRE-EQed signal to work with. This way the bass player can get his sound on-stage and I have something that is easy to work with out front. Believe it or not most of the audience is not paying attention to any thing but the vocals. Chances are the only people in the whole venue that care what the bass sounds like are the bass player and the soundman.
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OK, so let's all buy Behringer PA and amps.
 
#47
Jimmy,

There is some good stuff and some nonsense in this thread for sure. I am ok with a DI box or a pre EQ out from my head, that doesn't mean it needs to be for you. I'm not telling you anything you don't know but many others don't get that part of it.

Now OFF TOPIC:

I think what some people can take from this thread is that when you make the decision that your amp is part of your sound you have a set of circumstances to deal with that the Pre EQ/DI camp does not. You are also outside of the norm of what the average sound guy may deal with on a regular basis and explaining this is important to having a good working relationship be that for a random single gig or a longer term relationship.

I have two issues; the guy that THINKS his rig is an integral part of his sound when it isn't and the guy that insists on mic'ing his bass cabinet when it's clear that the soundman is not experienced enough to work with it properly.

You've got to know when to pick your battles. MOSTLY unrelated to the original Topic!
 
#48
JimmyM said:
OK, so let's all buy Behringer PA and amps.
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Dang JimmyM,

Wish you would have said that sooner. It sure would have saved all the work I been doing to tweak my tone for the new band ;)

PS: I always go FOH post eq if I'm only given one (1) line & I agree with you that a good compromise can be reached between sound man and player if they work together.
 
#49
modulusman said:
My agenda is that as a bass player who also has spent alot of time as soundman I would rather have a PRE-EQed signal to work with. This way the bass player can get his sound on-stage and I have something that is easy to work with out front.
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This is total crap.

I suppose all bandleaders should avoid writing any parts that contain tricky rhythms, or fast runs. That way it will be easy for the bass player. Wouldn't want anyone to have to work a little bit to make the music sound the way it was intended to sound.

You are not the bass player, you are not in the band. Running FOH does not make you the band's producer. That's what the guy sounds like. It is your job to take that sound and fill the room with it. With some guys this will be very easy, with some it will take some work.

If the only way you can get a mix to hang together is by rebuilding the bass player's sound from scratch then you suck as a soundman.

As to this specific case, if Jimmy sounds anything like the clips he posts from time to time he is well in to the 'stick an RE20 in front of the amp and worry about something else' category for me anyway.
 
#50
peterpalmieri said:
The average listener might not notice all the details when everything sounds great but when something is off even an average listener knows something is wrong.
...
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+1 Especially in a club setting. Few people compliment the tone of a vintage instrument or a great mix, but they are quick to jump all over big problems like muddy vocals or singers with poor mic technique. Everyone's a soundman...
 
#51
I understand where you're coming from JimmyM, whenever I think my rig sounds fantastic it totally clashes with the other instruments and makes all kinds of problems on stage.
So, is there a sweet spot that has to be acheived between "overwhelming the rest of the band with too much midbass", "making it sound a little boxy with too many upper mids", and avoiding a low-end boosted scooped tone that muddies everything up?

Do you guys think a "hi fi" (flat responding cab, such as Bill Fitzmaurice) would make it easier or harder to get a good FOH sound, vs a standard 212/410 type cab?
 
#53
modulusman said:
My agenda is that as a bass player who also has spent alot of time as soundman I would rather have a PRE-EQed signal to work with. This way the bass player can get his sound on-stage and I have something that is easy to work with out front. Believe it or not most of the audience is not paying attention to any thing but the vocals. Chances are the only people in the whole venue that care what the bass sounds like are the bass player and the soundman.
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This is certainly not true, unless you are playing bass for Miley Cyrus and the entire fanbase is girls under 14. I get comments on my tone all the time, whether I was playing a church gig, a blues gig, whatever. People do notice a great bass sound. If the bass sound is bad, boomy, non-existant, then they will certainly tune it out.

To add my 2c, I like to have a direct signal from my amp or whatever Di box, and then mic the cab also, and the soundguy can choose whatever he likes best. Most all sound guys I have worked with ask for pre-eq di.
 
#54
projectMalamute said:
This is total crap.

I suppose all bandleaders should avoid writing any parts that contain tricky rhythms, or fast runs. That way it will be easy for the bass player. Wouldn't want anyone to have to work a little bit to make the music sound the way it was intended to sound.
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Listen, I don't see anyone going out of their way to make MY job onstage easier. No, I get bitched at by (name withheld but not Bowzer) for sitting down during a rehearsal, completely not caring that I'd already been rehearsing with other acts for 3 hours before that (I refused to get up, BTW, but I promised him I'd stand during the gig). Or I get, "Why didn't you bring your SVT to this gig?" when it's a giant PITA to load in. God only knows what would happen if I wanted to put my bass on a stand instead of holding it on my shoulder for 2 hours at a time.
 
#55
Skip_NJ said:
Do you guys think a "hi fi" (flat responding cab, such as Bill Fitzmaurice) would make it easier or harder to get a good FOH sound, vs a standard 212/410 type cab?
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It won't sound like an SVT but it won't make things harder. If anything, it will make it a little easier, because your sound out of a BFM cab will be closer to what you get out of a PA system, and you'll be able to hear it pretty much the same way everywhere you stand on the stage. But again, if you're looking for a less hi-fi sound, such as me with my SVT or B-15, a BFM cab won't sound like that.
 
#56
projectMalamute said:
This is total crap.

.
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What was total crap?
Modulusman stated a fact, the majority of sound engineers if given the *choice* of a PRE or POST eq send many if not most would prefer a PRE EQ send.

When I provide sound (as I have been doing for the past 2-years, and the past year full time) I always give the bass player a chance to try there rig through my system how they want it. Either with a Mic or with the DI from there head.
Bass DI's on heads I find are a 50/50 chance if they are going to make noise or not, no matter what brand bass head it is.
Most bass players that bring there own mic's to use generally have crap (I am talking local bar circuit here) and I offer to let them use a AKG D112 and they still would prefer to try there $50 craigslist purchased super duper bass mic.

99% of the time they end up going with a passive DI, PRE everything.
 
#59
I have an ear for EQ. The abilities of the soundman varies on my gigs since we don't usually have a guy to travel with us. And a lot of them love a scooped bass sound for some reason, so I'd rather not make it easy for them to achieve it. But that's just me...seen a lot of bassists use them and they sounded fine to me for their bands. Just not my thing.
 
#60
projectMalamute said:
This is total crap.

I suppose all bandleaders should avoid writing any parts that contain tricky rhythms, or fast runs. That way it will be easy for the bass player. Wouldn't want anyone to have to work a little bit to make the music sound the way it was intended to sound.

You are not the bass player, you are not in the band. Running FOH does not make you the band's producer. That's what the guy sounds like. It is your job to take that sound and fill the room with it. With some guys this will be very easy, with some it will take some work.

If the only way you can get a mix to hang together is by rebuilding the bass player's sound from scratch then you suck as a soundman.

As to this specific case, if Jimmy sounds anything like the clips he posts from time to time he is well in to the 'stick an RE20 in front of the amp and worry about something else' category for me anyway.
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And you have been a soundman for how long.:rolleyes: IME running sound for bar bands most of the time people are complaining about 2 things, they can't hear the vocals or it is too loud. Alot of times it is a catch-22 situation because the musicians are too loud onstage so you can't get the vocals loud enough to be heard.
 

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