Double Bass My unique needs on Upright -- advice wanted

[PauFerro]

I am seriously thinking of getting into upright. I play fretless electric, piccolo, fretted electric, and only recently, played an Double bass that was actually set up properly. For years I was put off on learning to play the upright because it was so hard to play at Sam Ash or the Guitar Center. Now I realize that set up is important and feel encouraged.

With that in mind here are my questions.

1. After 50 years on the planet, I have learned that the FIT of the instrucment to my body and hands is as important as tone. In fact, I am willing to sacrifice tone within reason, for fit. I play longer, practice more, and actual sound better melodically and technically when I play a bass that fits me. After years of trying to fit into average sized clothes, backpacks, bikes, you name it, I have found that fit is critical for me.

I am therefore consideing a 1/4 size or 1/2 instrument and compensating for lack of boom/volume with a pickup system. I don't care if it's for kids, as people say, luthiers even lampooned 30" basses when I was thinking of getting one years ago, but now they have grown in acceptance, and they are all I play in pro gigs. So I wonder if the same applies to 1/4 of 1/2 size uprights.

2. I play jazz, and I want that really buzzy sound that makes the instrument really sensitive and expressive. What is it about the setup that will achieve that sound on an upright?

3. Is it important to have a carved top for the jazz sound I am looking for? Buzzy and expressive and clear (not thumpy with weak sustain on the note). the beginners guide says yes, but again, i wonder what others think.

4. I don't see why you can't buy one of those $900 basses on ebay/Amazon and then pay for a good setup, and good set of strings (and maybe a bow). Is it because they will crack or implode? I find even cheap electric basses can be your best friend with a good set of electronics and a good setup.

5. Is iBetter to get one from a local shop that has already been broken in with the local weather? And has time on its side so all the instability has been exposed and fixed, if any?

Thanks for the answers to as many of these questions as possible...

PF

 

[MikeCanada]

1. You likely aren't going to get the sound you are looking for on anything smaller than about 5/8ths, or a 39" string length, and that is if you find one of the few exceptions to the rule in that size. FIT as you call it is important, but unless you are a particularly petite individual with very small hands, you can achieve it on a "standard" 3/4 instrument with a 40-42" string length. If you have been through the beginners' guide and done some reading, you will have discovered that fractional sizes are largely open to interpretation, with 3/4 meaning anything that is a regular sized bass, 7/8, 4/4, and 5/4 are reserved for instruments that are atypically large, and 5/8 is for anything that is on the smaller end of typical. 1/2 and 1/4 size instruments are typically intended for young children, not only because they are shorter, but also because they have yet to develop the hand strength to play a larger instrument.

I personally have not the largest hands and play on a 41.5" string length and a large-ish 3/4 size instrument, and I know countless other bassists who are shorter/smaller people who manage a full size instrument absolutely fine. Slope of the shoulders, overstand, (the distance between the top of the bass and the fingerboard at the neck joint) neck angle, if the back is canted, if the ribs are tapered, how long the table of the instrument is, and a ton of other variables are at play when determining how a bass fits to a bassist. Depending on the type of music you are planning on playing, you may or may not require access to the end of the fingerboard and beyond, and if you do, there are plenty of basses out there built with soloists in mind to make it easier to get up there.

Fractional instruments tend to leave a lot to be desired in the sound/tone department, and you are needlessly limiting yourself by starting off your search with that in mind.

2. Depending on what you are going for, some jazz guys like to have a lower string height to achieve what you are looking for. On an electric you will experience fret noise if your string height is too low, and if you play really hard or bow really loudly on an instrument with low string height you can experience a similar situation on double bass. Typically the "jazz setup" that some guys go for is low string height and Thomastik-Infeld Spirocore Mittel strings which you can pair with a relatively hot pickup/lots of head room to give you the sound I believe you are looking for. There are a lot of other ways to achieve a desired tone besides just setup, and technique plays an extremely large part of that on double bass. It is also very easy for poor technique to lead to injury on double bass, so even a few lessons to start you on the right path, avoid bad habits, and show you some of the differences between electric and double bass, (they are fundamentally different instruments even if they do share a role and tuning) is a very good idea.

3. Technique again is a big part of tone. Carved tops tend to vibrate a little clearer because they are one piece of wood moving as one, not several competing with each other. They are ply basses out there that can sound great and they aren't a bad option for a first bass, but you can also get into a hybrid at a fairly reasonable price and there can be a significant difference between the two.

4. The Ebay/Amazon BSO's are called "Bass Shaped Objects" for a reason. Almost all of them are made out of inappropriate materials to make a double bass out of, and every possible corner is cut to try to keep the price down. When we talk about cracking/imploding, that tends to be the norm, not the exception. Many of them suffer from sunken tops which are an extremely costly repair on an instrument that is worth it, a lot of them have seams that open up, but they were put together with Titebond instead of hide glue, so shops refuse to go near them because they are impossible to get apart or back together again. Often the neck is set at the wrong angle, or it shifts because the mortise is poorly cut and then a ton of wood glue/filler is used to take up the slack, which falls apart under tension. None of those things are setup related, they are poor construction related. Think of the $900 double basses on the internet as a similar option to the electric guitars sold in a big box electronics store. It might be cheap, but you typically aren't getting something worth playing at Sears/Radio Shack. It would be akin to purchasing an electric bass where there was a significant chance the neck would warp, a few frets would fall out, the pickup likely isn't wired correctly, and the neck joint was carved out by a drunk with a grapefruit spoon. None of that can be fixed with a professional setup.

I haven't read the beginner guide in a while, but it likely suggests you start somewhere in the neighbourhood of $1500-2000 for a ply instrument, from a reputable violin family/bass specific shop instead of Sam Ash/Guitar Center. Most violin family/bass shops have explored a significant number of options to find an affordable instrument that meets their standards, and many of them set them up, put a better set of strings on them, and often fit a new bridge or endpin as well. This is why you can occasionally find the same brand/model of entry level instruments at a Music Store cheaper than at a bass shop, but often that doesn't include the work the bass shop puts into it before considering it saleable, and you will often spend more in the long run buying it "cheaper" but having to take it somewhere to have the setup done.

5. Generally, it is a good idea to purchase an instrument that has lived in your climate for about a year. I personally would only buy an instrument that hasn't lived in my climate for a year if I was commissioning an instrument or found a great opportunity to purchase a pedigree instrument. While accidents happen and sometimes problems take longer to become evident than others, if an instrument survived its first year through your local seasonal shifts, there is reason to believe it will survive longer than that. If it is brand new or brand new to your climate, then you run a higher risk of sunken tops, open seams, or any other plywood implosion experiences. Some shops don't even let an instrument on the floor until it has made it through its first year, although that is significantly easier to do with violins than basses, given how much less space they require. At the very least, most shops give the instruments a few weeks/months to get accustomed to their new home before doing setups and adjustments, if for no other reason that they don't want to do them a second time when the instrument settles.

If you purchase from a violin family/bass shop, typically they will tweak/adjust the setup for you if you know what you want done differently when purchasing the instrument, (a lot of them are set a little on the high side for the players that like that, and then they can lower them if necessary for someone else) and again in another month or two after you have lived with the instrument for a while and noticed you would like something a little different. That often involves changing the string height, adjusting the bridge and/or nut, or moving the sound post around a bit but if you want something more invasive done, that's up to you to pay for.

To sum things up, you more than likely don't want/need a small instrument for playability, sound, and tone reasons, Spiro Mittels are a great place to start for jazz strings, a carved top isn't required but you might find you like/want it, technique is a significant part of the sound/tone equation, BSO's are a bad idea, and a bass that has lived the local life a little will usually be happier there.

There are also a lot of fantastic older instruments out there, and "used" has far fewer negative connotations when it comes to double basses than most other purchases. All of the double basses with the biggest price tags also happen to be old, some of them a few hundred years. But this has already got really wordy and given you plenty to think about.

 

[Matthijs]

To sum things up, you more than likely don't want/need a small instrument for playability, sound, and tone reasons, Spiro Mittels are a great place to start for jazz strings, a carved top isn't required but you might find you like/want it, technique is a significant part of the sound/tone equation, BSO's are a bad idea, and a bass that has lived the local life a little will usually be happier there.

Maybe you should have started and ended with that summation It's great advice. Let me also stress that 'fit' on a DB is not a question of mensur or body size. You need a good and fitting setup and neck and fingerboard, BSO's won't deliver that. Also, the sound you want needs at least 40 inches of Thomastik strings.

 

[PauFerro]

Great post. MIkeCanada. Thanks!

 

[Jay Corwin]

I can't add much @MikeCanada post. Just a couple of points.

To the OP, I participated in your thread about losing a gig because you don't double. I assume that your interest in double bass may be peaked because of this.

The one thing I would advise against is trying to make generalizations about double bass in reference to your experience on bass guitar. You might find a cheap guitar perfectly serviceable after some hardware changes, setup, and strings - but double basses do not work that way. You are comparing apples to jack hammers. I'll leave it at that. Otherwise it's bound to turn long winded.

A lot of newbies try to make comparisons like, I have a great Squier...so why not just get one those ebay things. There really isn't a "Squier" of double basses. There really isn't even a Fender for that matter. The club just ain't that big.

Double bass is a marathon, not a sprint - both financially and physically/technically. If you are looking for short cuts, you aren't going to find many - especially playing jazz. Bass guitar skills do not translate to upright bass the way one might think, if at all (not even fretless). They are two very different animals.

 

[PauFerro]

I can't add much @MikeCanada post. Just a couple of points.

To the OP, I participated in your thread about losing a gig because you don't double. I assume that your interest in double bass may be peaked because of this.

Kind of, but not really...the drummer told me the lack of upright was not not the issue. It was more that he hadn't thought about the implications of what he was doing for his existing spate of gigs from myself.

The one thing I would advise against is trying to make generalizations about double bass in reference to your experience on bass guitar. You might find a cheap guitar perfectly serviceable after some hardware changes, setup, and strings - but double basses do not work that way. You are comparing apples to jack hammers. I'll leave it at that. Otherwise it's bound to turn long winded.

Ok. I will take that seriously.

Double bass is a marathon, not a sprint - both financially and physically/technically. If you are looking for short cuts, you aren't going to find many - especially playing jazz. Bass guitar skills do not translate to upright bass the way one might think, if at all (not even fretless). They are two very different animals.

For me, it's the final frontier. I can play fretted, fretless, and piccolo, and upright has always been something I wanted to do. Too bad it is so expensive, fragile as an instrument, and hard to play at first.

Do you think it increases your marketability due to all these "entry barriers" to becoming a full-fledged player? It seems that with all the financial and other obstacles, a lot of guys would just stay on electric, thus limiting the supply of good upright players. Is that true in your experience?

One thing I was thinking of doing to transition well was to blend the upright and the electric on gigs. I have a stand for the electric that makes it possible to move over to it for solos and such, and then moving back to the upright, gradually expanding the night to the upright totally. This could be easier on my hands and muscles, while still giving me exposure and progress with the instrument. Songs like Killer Joe, Footprints, and other songs with less movement required might go well on upright early, giving me momentum and confidence...thoughts?

 

[Jay Corwin]

For me, it's the final frontier. I can play fretted, fretless, and piccolo, and upright has always been something I wanted to do. Too bad it is so expensive, fragile as an instrument, and hard to play at first.

Do you think it increases your marketability due to all these "entry barriers" to becoming a full-fledged player? It seems that with all the financial and other obstacles, a lot of guys would just stay on electric, thus limiting the supply of good upright players. Is that true in your experience?

One thing I was thinking of doing to transition well was to blend the upright and the electric on gigs. I have a stand for the electric that makes it possible to move over to it for solos and such, and then moving back to the upright, gradually expanding the night to the upright totally. This could be easier on my hands and muscles, while still giving me exposure and progress with the instrument. Songs like Killer Joe, Footprints, and other songs with less movement required might go well on upright early, giving me momentum and confidence...thoughts?

I would hardly describe the instrument as fragile. It requires a different kind of maintenance than does a bass guitar.

To answer your question about marketability, yes. Being a decent upright player will increase your marketability as a bass player in general. It's a much smaller group than bass guitarists. Now I am basing this statement on my own experience in my neck of the woods. I'm in two bands, do some one-off bluegrass type of things, and have a jazz combo in the works. I could have more if I wanted, or if I had time. Keep in mind I'm not a professional musician either. There are plenty of guys around town that would blow me away.

The transition from BG to UB is probably going to depend mostly on how much time you have to practice upright bass, and what approach you take to it (lessons, book study, winging it). The pros here would have a better view than mine on this. When I made the change I was almost done with any gigging for a while. I played an occasional BG gig, but opted to reinvent myself so to speak as an upright player before I started gigging again. Only recently have I had the itch to play some BG again, but the truth is I'm too busy doing upright gigs to scratch it. I've never taken both to a gig. For me it took a long time before I had the confidence to get out there with other musicians and play upright bass. Time is always the biggest limiting factor in my own progression because I have a full time job, house and land to take care of, family obligations, etc.

 

[PauFerro]

The reason I called it fragile is because I have heard repeated stories about humidity causing warps, cracks, separation etcetera. Jaco, in an interview, said the southern humidity that I live in put his upright into pieces. That was why he ripped out the frets on his Fender Jazz and put boat epoxy on the neck -- thus starting a fretless craze that still exists today...

Also, others are saying you need to have the bass out in air for a year in the locale you are going to use it within so it stabilizes. These things seem to speak of fragility. I also see a lot of uprights around town and most are all beaten up at the edges since the thing is so bulky.

Anyway, I don't know much about these things so I will stop referring to them as fragile.

If you were to estimate the number of hours per day you need to practice it, for how long, what would it be?

I know this is hard, but having that reference will help me determine what I'm "in for". To count the cost, so to speak, so this expensive instrument doesn't collect dust and then get sold at a fraction of its value....Marcus Miller said that practicing 3 hours per day for 2 years was enough to get competent on electric bass. My experience was that it was true when I started the quest for competency.

Any estimates would be appreciated.

 

[Sam Sherry]

You've received a lot of very sound advice so far. Now it's time for Something Completely Different!

I asked myself, "Why does Pau want to play DB?"

For me, it's the final frontier. I can play fretted, fretless, and piccolo, and upright has always been something I wanted to do.

That's a fair reason, not that you need me to say so.

Do you think it increases your marketability . . .

That's not a great reason, not that you care about what I think.

Pau, you're old enough to comprehend that it takes several years of focused effort to truly start anything new. Career, relationship, language or musical instrument, it's all like that. It takes years, months and hours to get past the beginner mistakes (and move onto more advanced mistakes).

If you want to start working on DB because it will make you more marketable several years from now, that's your choice. But from the economic standpoint it's almost certainly a bad investment. You spend a bundle of money then carry a ton of hod for years just to pick up a modest economic gain. There are probably other aspects of musical life which are less expensive to pursue, and which you are already farther down the road toward, and which will be likely to yield greater economic return.

I play double bass because I love to make music on the double bass. I don't care about the money. I don't care about playing everything -- I don't play everything anymore. I don't care that I will never be as good as {insert musical hero}. I love this noise and I have to play the double bass to make this noise.

If you think you might feel the same way, then in my unasked-for opinion that's the best reason to take on the challenge.

All the best. Tell what happens, OK?

 

[Jeff Bonny]

You've received a lot of very sound advice so far. Now it's time for Something Completely Different!

I asked myself, "Why does Pau want to play DB?"


That's a fair reason, not that you need me to say so.


That's not a great reason, not that you care about what I think.

Pau, you're old enough to comprehend that it takes several years of focused effort to truly start anything new. Career, relationship, language or musical instrument, it's all like that. It takes years, months and hours to get past the beginner mistakes (and move onto more advanced mistakes).

If you want to start working on DB because it will make you more marketable several years from now, that's your choice. But from the economic standpoint it's almost certainly a bad investment. You spend a bundle of money then carry a ton of hod for years just to pick up a modest economic gain. There are probably other aspects of musical life which are less expensive to pursue, and which you are already farther down the road toward, and which will be likely to yield greater economic return.

I play double bass because I love to make music on the double bass. I don't care about the money. I don't care about playing everything -- I don't play everything anymore. I don't care that I will never be as good as {insert musical hero}. I love this noise and I have to play the double bass to make this noise.

If you think you might feel the same way, then in my unasked-for opinion that's the best reason to take on the challenge.

All the best. Tell what happens, OK?

I was just about to hit send saying fundamentally the same thing. All I'll add is that if there are basses to be rented within a distance you're willing to go rent one or two before you buy. Get your feet wet, take a few lessons, play EVERY instrument you can get your hands on. It's far too great an investment in time, money and soul to take very casually. A casual DB player will likely become an ex-DB player sooner than later.

 

[PauFerro]

Sounds good. There are a lot of reasons I haven't shared for wanting to do it. Marketability is probably the least important because I keep my schedule almost as full as I want, due to my own sales efforts, and occasionally, members of my group's efforts.

If I was to prioritize

1. I love the sound of a jazz grinder upright. That massive buzz and grind it what I live for in a fretless type of bass, both electric and upright.

2. I am a jazz lover. And the upright is an integral part of the history and personna of jazz. I see it as completing my jazz education making me a well-rounded jazz player.

3. I just reached acceptable levels on two other fronts recently that took me many years. I can now improvise freely over most chord changes in jazz. It took me years to learn to do this as I am not an ear player. I had to find my own path. It meant unravelling the concepts of many books to find the core ideas. it was frustrating and I almost quit a couple times due to conflicting, strong opinions from musicians I worked with about whether my approach was even technically correct. But I managed to find my own way.

The other thing I did recently was learn to make the piccolo bass work in a jazz setting. It worked on that for two years before I went public with it. So, I am ready for a new frontier.

4. The joy that music brings is the journey -- not the destination. It's the pursuit of the ideal that motivates me.

5. Now that I have a CD's worth of original piccolo bass music that passed the judgment of a full band, and restaurant full of jazz lovers, I would like to create a CD where I pick the right tool for the song -- whether electric, fretless, piccolo or upright.

I also work from home so I have breaks every hour for 15 minutes, and I use that time to practice....I think it would be cool to do that on upright instead of piccolo all the time now.

Anyway, thanks for the counter point. You are right that there isn't really an economic reason for such as hefty investment in time and money. I don't see upright being an economic necessity, but it sure would be a crowining achievement on my 30-40 years learning to play jazz...I will keep researching this and listening to you guys and seeing what I do.

Thanks for your support and the kind, supportive, thoughtful words in this thread. Much appreciated.

 

[groooooove]

Mike totally crushed it. nothing else to add. i especially agree with him on the cheap chinese basses.

when i was in highschool, one of my good friends was the other bass player in the jazz band. we were both electric players at the time. we both ventured into double bass at the same time, i saved up extra money from my job cleaning pools at the time and, upon my (electric) teachers reccomendation, got a shen 80 - set up by jeff bollbach no less.

my friend, spent around $600 less- got himself a chinese 3/4 bass (not shen). within the first couple of months the bass needed more money into it than it was worth. he no longer plays upright at all.

i of course own other great basses now- but still use that damn shen 80- just used it last night. i beat the life out of that thing, too. it's been left in a car overnight in winter, as well as summer. never in a humidity controlled environment. the bass is 10 years old now and it hasn't had a single problem.

moral of the story; get a shen. their lowest model with a good setup and strings will sound great. mine kills with low action and mittels, especially for jazz.

 

[PauFerro]

I did a search and couldn't find these brands easily anywhere. Suggestions where to get a Shen, and a selection of Englehardts?

 

[Groove Doctor]

You sound ready and more than capable for the challenge. Just go for it!!

I did that 'ease yourself in approach' too, worked well keeping me focussed & motivated to practice towards a gig. Only downside is you might tend to play DB like an EB (instead of like a DB). It's a whole new musical language & way of thinking.


Best tip I got: Be happy to be crap for as long as it takes to get good.

 

[Febs]

Suggestions where to get a Shen, and a selection of Englehardts?

Where do you live?

 

[Jay Corwin]

@PauFerro Be careful not to underestimate the amount of skills, drills, routines it takes to develop the muscle memory required to accomplish the correct fingering on upright. The fingerings and box patterns you are used to are not going to translate from BG to UB in most instances.

 

[HateyMcAmp]

One more vote for getting either a 3/4 or 5/8 bass. I'm 5'5", don't have particularly large hands, and have found that 30-32" scale length electrics are much more comfortable to play. That said, I find 3/4 double basses fit me very well and don't see an advantage in going smaller scale length-wise. I find the drawback of "big" basses isn't so much the scale length, but that many have higher shoulders which make going into thumb position a little awkward for my shorter arms. Unless you go 7/8, that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

Jaco, in an interview, said the southern humidity that I live in put his upright into pieces.

I love Jaco as much as the next guy, but that quote of his makes no sense unless you decide to live off the grid and eschew air conditioning. I've lived in Florida for 30 years and the humidity has never had a negative effect on any of my basses. It's actually dry weather that can do the most harm and since it stays fairly humid all year long in Florida, cracks are a rarity as long as the instrument is taken care of and not exposed to extreme temperatures (i.e left in a car during the summer). I've spoken to other bassists here in Florida who agree that it may be the ideal climate for the instrument.

- Steve

 

[PauFerro]

Where do you live?

I sent you a Private message

 

[Febs]

I sent you a Private message

I don't have any specific suggestions for your area, but I'm sure that there are people here who can give you recommendations for your area if you choose to disclose it.