Double Bass My unique needs on Upright -- advice wanted

[PauFerro]

Hey Pau, welcome to the dark side! All I want to add here is jump in, brother! When you say focus is for champions, well, it's true, but we don't all have to be champions. Jaco has already lived, know what I mean? It's the journey, the new discoveries, that is the spice. I think renting a 3/4 and taking lessons immediately will answer 99% of your questions. Music, as you know, is only for the enthusiastically committed, and if the DB grabs you after a lesson or two, fantastic! If it doesn't, there are only about a million other instruments to try, and different things to do with your current electric. Let a teacher help you onto the path, then you'll know.

Enjoy!

p.s.: I don't think it will take you two years to be gig-ready.

This is a very liberating post. Taking 4 years to be gig ready while giving up all other musical instruments just isn't practical for me right now. I know that great things take commitment, but to know that I could at least get some good experiences out of it live in a reasonable time would be motivating.

In my work as a teacher, one thing I have learned to do is to simplifty concepts in the very beginning when people are new to the discipline to facilitate rapid early progress. People are not only learning the discipline, they are learning if a) they have any talent in the discipline and b) whether they LIKE the discipline and c) whether they think you are a good teacher.

So, a highly structured, well thought out approach to getting started that shows people they CAN show progress early and fast, is critical to helping people get that passion and engagement to tackle the hard stuff. After they have that, they can learn about the details and put in those hours. When it comes to improv, I have ways now of teaching people so they can improvise freely in a very short period of time over simple chord changes. I tested them out in two improv workshops I conducted at a local community center. No learning everything in 12 keys -- stick with C for a few lessons. Stick with the major scale only, and show them how it fits some simple II-V's. After they experience the joy of improv, we can then get serious about learning patterns in all keys etcera. The passion must come first as its necessary to create the motivation needed to master something.

I use that principle all the time in my work as a teacher. So, when I see that it's going to be four years in the woodshed, and when I see I already have a ton of gigs on electric and piccolo, with unexplored frontiers on those instruments, it makes me really sit down and count the cost.

The post above is encouraging.

 

[NickyBass]

You say that you don't feel comfortable playing a full size double bass. I think that is normal. You aren't going to feel comfortable until you spend some time with it, and take a few lessons on proper technique. Have you played smaller DBs? Do they feel any different? My advise would be to rent a 3/4 bass and take a few lessons. Also, I personally wouldn't worry about how long it takes to be proficient. Honestly, nobody has enough time to get to the level where they are content with their playing. Just jump in and give it a try. Enjoy the journey, and best of luck with it!

 

[PauFerro]

I played a 1/4 size, 1/2 size and 3/4 size at a luthier's/string shop a couple years ago and I felt very at home on the 1/4 size, but it was really quiet. None of the basses had the grind I was interested in. I put the idea on hold at that time..

 

[damonsmith]

As far as timeline, it takes forever! But, 2-4 years with regular practice will get you comfortable with the whole fingerboard - provided you study a basic classical method, arco with a teacher. You will be able to do a lot within a few weeks, even more the first year. Just do what the teacher says. The methods have way more clarity than bass guitar which is more open ended.

 

[Remyd]

p.s.: I don't think it will take you two years to be gig-ready.

Agreed. If you're already a bass player of some description, the 80/20 rule certainly applies (you can get 80% of the instrument in 20% of the time). Especially in more straightforward genres like blues or roots. I wouldn't be surprised if a bluegrass bassist could get to the 80% in 10-12 weeks of lessons.

I personally have been working that 20% for like 20 years. Had some serious back-sliding yesterday, so maybe like 25% ;-)

 

[Groove Doctor]

+1 bluegrass, roots, early R&R/rockabilly, or ballads. Just get started!

It won't take you very long to get used to the basics of ~3/4 size if you play it daily. Strength, Muscle memory, fingering patterns, etc come quickly with repetition and familiarity if you stick with first few positions. Jazz ballads and two-feel songs (eg. Hello Dolly) I could play in just a few months.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Pau: Perhaps string tension is part of the problem. Have you tried a 3/4 with very low tension strings?

 

[talentless_hack]

Pau, figured I'd chime in as a fellow beginner.

I have a history of halfassing learning new instruments and wasn't sure whether I'd really like the double bass or be able to make it do anything musical, so I rented my first bass - it cost me about $70 a month for a surprisingly nice plywood with a not-so-nice bow. I then emailed a bunch of teachers, took a few lessons with a jazz guy and a classical guy, settled on the classical guy and off I went.

It is by far the most difficult instrument I've tried. I have played a reasonable amount of electric bass, but the only skill I possessed that translated was reading bass clef - physically it's very different. That said, I have fallen in love with it and am very happy to be struggling along.

Renting a 3/4 for at least a few months and finding the best teacher you can is what I'd really strongly suggest - you can see if you like it with no real risk, and build some skills that'll help you choose an instrument if you decide to keep going. I think that if I'd chosen one knowing what I knew when I started out, it would've ended very badly.

I think I saw you mention a Shen earlier in this thread, so I'll also pitch in and say that I am thrilled with the Shen SB200 Rogeri that I bought recently - it sounded and felt better than instruments that were more than twice the price.

 

[brianrost]

If you want to start working on DB because it will make you more marketable several years from now, that's your choice. But from the economic standpoint it's almost certainly a bad investment.

I agree with Sam about the economic payback being modest, but taking up DB did jump me into much better gigs. That was a few years before the great swing scare of the 1990s (even before all hail Bob started Gollihur Music ) when in my local scene 99% of landing a DB gig was owning one

Today there are far more people playing DB, so it's not going to be the same experience for you. Do it if you love it (I sure do).

 

[TomB]

It's been brought up already, but a body with sloping shoulders is probably more important to comfort than size for pizz and especially if you play above the octave - the Shen you were linked to is a good example. But you can adjust to any shape for any repertoire. Another thought, and somebody else mentioned this, too: You might want to try Spirocore Weich vs. Mittel for an easier time getting the "buzz" you mention. I found that lighter strings helped ease the transition from electric... YMMV.

 

[PauFerro]

Pau: Perhaps string tension is part of the problem. Have you tried a 3/4 with very low tension strings?

I had that thought. One advantage of short instruments on electric bass (30" scale) is that the shorter distance tends to make the strings floppier, and so you get a better "buzz" at the finger board when you press down on a note with your fingerboard-end fingers. Would the same principle apply for an upright bass?

Even on a 3/4 bass, I think it might be worthwhile to get some low tension strings so it really growls like crazy. That would really motivate me to practice. I like the way Brian Bomberg sounds on this song. Notice how, when he holds a note, the note expands like crazy...



So, is the secret a flat fingerboard, low tension strings, and a low bridge?

 

[TomB]

I had that thought. One advantage of short instruments on electric bass (30" scale) is that the shorter distance tends to make the strings floppier, and so you get a better "buzz" at the finger board when you press down on a note with your fingerboard-end fingers. Would the same principle apply for an upright bass?

Even on a 3/4 bass, I think it might be worthwhile to get some low tension strings so it really growls like crazy. That would really motivate me to practice. I like the way Brian Bomberg sounds on this song. Notice how, when he holds a note, the note expands like crazy...



So, is the secret a flat fingerboard, low tension strings, and a low bridge?

Lower tension strings do have more excursion and tend to "buzz" more, but whether or not those strings will sound good and "satisfying" on the bass varies a lot by individual instrument and its top. I mentioned it more as a way to ease the transition to higher action and more aggressive pizz required vs. the electric. Once you develop expertise you can jump into the "string pool" of finding which strings suit your needs. The water's fine there, as long as you have lots of money .

 

[Groove Doctor]

His DB is 300 years old apparently. (Wiki). His page is here,
Official Site for Brian Bromberg - World Renowned Jazz Bassist

Failing ideas here, you could email him. He's also a record producer so will have learned a few trick in his time.

PS. Here's Brian's solo DB album (yes, just him on DB with 3 Neumann mics).
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[shwashwa]

I had that thought. One advantage of short instruments on electric bass (30" scale) is that the shorter distance tends to make the strings floppier, and so you get a better "buzz" at the finger board when you press down on a note with your fingerboard-end fingers. Would the same principle apply for an upright bass?

Even on a 3/4 bass, I think it might be worthwhile to get some low tension strings so it really growls like crazy. That would really motivate me to practice. I like the way Brian Bomberg sounds on this song. Notice how, when he holds a note, the note expands like crazy...



So, is the secret a flat fingerboard, low tension strings, and a low bridge?

interesting that you think you need a 1/2 size bass to get the sound that brian gets with a 3/4 size bass...

 

[damonsmith]

Respect to Brian, but the flat fingerboard is not advisable in any way since if you want competence quickly, you will need to practice with the bow. The knucklehead route is 10 years +. Start with medium gauge strings and learn to get a good volume before worrying about specifics of tone.
I use light gauge strings but advise my students against it. The benefits of light gauge strings only work after time spent on normal strings.
Most important since it sounds like you are a working pro: borrowing basses is the order of the day on tour the more specific needs you have the more you are going to be let down on tour.
I have my set up but I can play most anything if I need to.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Thread here on Bromberg tone.
How does brian bromberg get that tone?

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I had that thought. One advantage of short instruments on electric bass (30" scale) is that the shorter distance tends to make the strings floppier, and so you get a better "buzz" at the finger board when you press down on a note with your fingerboard-end fingers. Would the same principle apply for an upright bass?

No. Growl is a factor of setup (namely string height), strings, and technique. Has very little to do with scale length.

Like we've been saying, you can throw out 80% of your preconceptions about how everything is done on DB. It's a different universe.

Mr. Bromberg gets that sound because he's paid his dues, experimented like hell with gear (have you seen how many pickups he has on his bass?), and knows his rudiments. He's no slouch. That said, I'm positive he's made some compromises with his setup. Everything is a compromise - you just choose the least number of disadvantages for how you want to play. Funny, he came to this forum a couple of years ago looking for string suggestions. Never heard back after we threw an onslaught of options at him.

Anyways, the point is:
THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS.

 

[damonsmith]

Agree with the above - actually you will get that sound with Thomastik Spirocores at most any height. The dreadful, cheesy "sax" (whoever that is plays "sax" Sonny Rollins plays the saxophone) will hopefully be harder to find!

 

[mdcbass]

I am seriously thinking of getting into upright. I play fretless electric, piccolo, fretted electric, and only recently, played an Double bass that was actually set up properly. For years I was put off on learning to play the upright because it was so hard to play at Sam Ash or the Guitar Center. Now I realize that set up is important and feel encouraged.

With that in mind here are my questions.

1. After 50 years on the planet, I have learned that the FIT of the instrucment to my body and hands is as important as tone. In fact, I am willing to sacrifice tone within reason, for fit. I play longer, practice more, and actual sound better melodically and technically when I play a bass that fits me. After years of trying to fit into average sized clothes, backpacks, bikes, you name it, I have found that fit is critical for me.

I am therefore consideing a 1/4 size or 1/2 instrument and compensating for lack of boom/volume with a pickup system. I don't care if it's for kids, as people say, luthiers even lampooned 30" basses when I was thinking of getting one years ago, but now they have grown in acceptance, and they are all I play in pro gigs. So I wonder if the same applies to 1/4 of 1/2 size uprights.

2. I play jazz, and I want that really buzzy sound that makes the instrument really sensitive and expressive. What is it about the setup that will achieve that sound on an upright?

3. Is it important to have a carved top for the jazz sound I am looking for? Buzzy and expressive and clear (not thumpy with weak sustain on the note). the beginners guide says yes, but again, i wonder what others think.

4. I don't see why you can't buy one of those $900 basses on ebay/Amazon and then pay for a good setup, and good set of strings (and maybe a bow). Is it because they will crack or implode? I find even cheap electric basses can be your best friend with a good set of electronics and a good setup.

5. Is iBetter to get one from a local shop that has already been broken in with the local weather? And has time on its side so all the instability has been exposed and fixed, if any?

Thanks for the answers to as many of these questions as possible...

PF

Would this meet your requirements?
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[PauFerro]

Grammar police are my pet peeve.

Would this meet your requirements?
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The looks really cool. It sounded OK took although a bit trebly, but I don't mind trebly actually. They want you to call for the price which tells me it's probably really expensive. Thanks for the link!