+1 i was an electric player first. i fell in love with upright. i basically quit electric for about 20 years while i practiced my ass off on the upright. ( i would take pop gigs or musical theater gigs etc, but nothing too heavy). just now im getting back into heavy shedding on the electric. this is mostly because i was performing exclusively on upright. if you perform on electric you can take you time i suppose. 1 hour a day, at then end of a year, is a lot of hours...
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Double Bass My unique needs on Upright -- advice wanted
- Thread starter PauFerro
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Add me to the pile of people recommending a regular sized bass. Think of it this way: The double bass has been (almost) unchanged in it's basic form since about 1850. There's a reason. That shape and size does yummy things to sound waves. If you change the shape or size (or take away the body and mount a fingerboard and a pickup on a stand) the yumminess is reduced. Not just volume. And not just a little.
The argument that you can just add a pickup to a student model is the same as the argument that says that since we have all of these great double bass sound samples, why wouldn't you map it to a midi keyboard or better yet roll it up in Garage Band and leave the bass player out entirely. That's a thing that can happen, but it doesn't feel the same, or sound the same, and neither is a particularly great idea imo.
Little basses are for children to learn before they get to the appropriately sized instrument. The shape of the neck issue is pretty important too. I was out of town last summer and was invited to a private jam session one night and a public one the next day. I had to borrow a bass for the week, but the only one I could get my hands on (for free anyhow) was a student 1/2 size. I think the total playing time was 5-6 hours, but by the end, I had to shift to a club grip and my left hand didn't stop aching until I was home for a week. I had to cancel a recording session because I didn't think I could make it all the way through with appropriate dexterity. And that was in 2 days!
What part or parts of a 3/4 bass don't fit you?
When I've heard people be concerned about upright bass size it is usually around the fingering of the left hand. I've seen people insist on using 1,2,3,4 fingering in the left hand thinking that a 3/4 bass is too big for them. The fingering I learned was 1,2 4 and with that, things become much more manageable.
I apologies if you already knew this (about fingering) but thought I'd bring it up since I didn't see it mentioned.
When I've heard people be concerned about upright bass size it is usually around the fingering of the left hand. I've seen people insist on using 1,2,3,4 fingering in the left hand thinking that a 3/4 bass is too big for them. The fingering I learned was 1,2 4 and with that, things become much more manageable.
I apologies if you already knew this (about fingering) but thought I'd bring it up since I didn't see it mentioned.
Going for a short scale is not a good idea. At all. If you want to play the double bass get a double bass.
Understand the whole fingering concept is different. Settle into that and get ready. A normal 3/4 bass will fit you provided you use double bass fingering which as has been pointed out is 124 or 134 (if you have an Italian teacher). Even the few four finger methods out there are A. in the minority and B. Not at all related to electric bass fingering and are in fact advanced and rigorous classical methods.
As it seems like you are an advanced player and not young, you really don't have the time to go the knuckle-head route. Get a bass, get a bow, get a teacher. in 3 or 4 years you will be playing great and at a pro level. Just do what the teacher says and practice everyday 20min-2hrs and you will be fine. Tinkering with proven scale and technique is going to waste time it doesn't sound like you have!
Understand the whole fingering concept is different. Settle into that and get ready. A normal 3/4 bass will fit you provided you use double bass fingering which as has been pointed out is 124 or 134 (if you have an Italian teacher). Even the few four finger methods out there are A. in the minority and B. Not at all related to electric bass fingering and are in fact advanced and rigorous classical methods.
As it seems like you are an advanced player and not young, you really don't have the time to go the knuckle-head route. Get a bass, get a bow, get a teacher. in 3 or 4 years you will be playing great and at a pro level. Just do what the teacher says and practice everyday 20min-2hrs and you will be fine. Tinkering with proven scale and technique is going to waste time it doesn't sound like you have!
I feel like a dwarf next to it. I haven't actually assessed what is wrong, but my body just rejects it to the point I don't even want to try. I played one that was set up properly and it was better, but for some reason I never bonded with the instrument given its size. I want to, though.
Well it certainly is a massively bigger instrument than an electric bass. Maybe the key is to accept it as a completely different instrument even thought the strings are tuned just like an electric bass. Not to sound weird, but maybe you can embrace its differences and accept it for what it is and what it isn't.
Based on the major commitment this sound like (2-4 years, 20 mins to 2 hours per day), you have me wondering if I should even do it. I thought it might come easier since I already have the harmonic knowledge, and can improvise... The comment above about not having a lot of time is actually very wise, although my whole life, I've always lived on the edge of what I know = lifelong learner. I'm not getting any younger...and focus makes champions.
I just got asked to fill out 8 weeks of Saturday with music which is going to take some time...now I must think again. Thanks guys.
I just got asked to fill out 8 weeks of Saturday with music which is going to take some time...now I must think again. Thanks guys.
Quit effing around and get a teacher. You may have body awareness but you have zero experience teaching yourself the big bass. This is a whole other game. One that can lead to bodily harm, even on a small bass.
Even small adults play regular sized basses. If you've already made up your mind you want to go with half sized basses why are you even bothering us with questions? Most of don't really care what you do if you don't choose to take our advise.
Personally if you're not going to go all in, don't bother and save us all the time and your money.
Even small adults play regular sized basses. If you've already made up your mind you want to go with half sized basses why are you even bothering us with questions? Most of don't really care what you do if you don't choose to take our advise.
Personally if you're not going to go all in, don't bother and save us all the time and your money.
Hfiddy -- a couple people in this thread advised against doing it. So, there is more than one voice to listen to, and certaintly not unanimous advice. Also, I have to be frank -- the tone of your post above has me puzzled, particularly if you don't care.
I don't but you're also not the first to come here thinking that you know everything about yourself and what works and what doesn't. There are people who spend years teaching others and there is technique developed out there that people have spent their lives figuring out ways to teach it to everyone, regardless of body type. You're not fully listening unless you allow yourself to open up to what they have to offer, as it is their profession, not their little hobby.
If you go at it yourself, you have been warned and probably don't know the risks you're taking and how much harder you're making it out for yourself.
Anything that's new and that we're not accustomed to will feel strange and unwieldy. Not everything in life fits hand in glove and some of most worthwhile things take a lot of work to understand.
If you go at it yourself, you have been warned and probably don't know the risks you're taking and how much harder you're making it out for yourself.
Anything that's new and that we're not accustomed to will feel strange and unwieldy. Not everything in life fits hand in glove and some of most worthwhile things take a lot of work to understand.
I expect that how much time is required to learn the URB varies widely. My luthier told me when I bought my URB - 10 years. Through the years, I think I've found that there are times when I needed to practice a lot, particularly in the middle and these days. Less in the beginning. In the beginning, my strength wasn't up to the task. In the middle, my strength was, but I wasn't efficient yet. I spent a year mostly playing Major scales 2 to 4 hours every day, at first, to a recording, arco, 2 octaves, than 3 octaves, different fingerings, and eventually my ear was good enough to catch my intonation issues without a recording. 2 to 4 hours per day, for a year, just to get barely competent on the instrument. I'm STILL working on nailing thumb position! I embraced that task based on a recollection from David Friesen who said that that's how he learned to intonate properly. Taking David's advice moved me up an order of magnitude as a jazz bassist, IMO because I learned to "hear the pitches" before I play them and developed a sense of where those pitches are on the instrument. Those exercises made me fully know the fingerboard, nut, middle, above the octave and at the end, and that improved my playing an order of magnitude because I no longer needed to reach to the nut for many pitches as I heard them in my mind's ear. It taught me something else too, and that's efficiency. I learned to press "just hard enough with my left hand but not harder" - credit Rufus Reid with insight and I discovered that a lot of issues with TP were poor left hand commitment and pressure and not the bow.
When I screw up, it's most commonly because I don't place my finger where I heard the pitch. It's less than 10 percent of the time and almost always when I'm soloing but @Chris Fitzgerald commented once about thumb position on the URB; to paraphrase "go for the pitches not the graphic diagram" and I have found that to be brilliant advice. Whenever I go for the pitch rather than an interval, even if I'm slightly off, I adjust quickly and the next note is in tune.
I don't know how many years it will take you to master the URB, actually, no one does, but, I do know that it will be measured in years, not months. And in terms of effort, effort-years, not effort-months. 20 minutes a day will not likely get you to your goal. Your existing musicianship will help, but will only get you partly there. Sheer repetition and careful analysis of what's wrong will get you the rest of the way.
Finally, teenagers find it easier than us old farts, so there's that.
When I screw up, it's most commonly because I don't place my finger where I heard the pitch. It's less than 10 percent of the time and almost always when I'm soloing but @Chris Fitzgerald commented once about thumb position on the URB; to paraphrase "go for the pitches not the graphic diagram" and I have found that to be brilliant advice. Whenever I go for the pitch rather than an interval, even if I'm slightly off, I adjust quickly and the next note is in tune.
I don't know how many years it will take you to master the URB, actually, no one does, but, I do know that it will be measured in years, not months. And in terms of effort, effort-years, not effort-months. 20 minutes a day will not likely get you to your goal. Your existing musicianship will help, but will only get you partly there. Sheer repetition and careful analysis of what's wrong will get you the rest of the way.
Finally, teenagers find it easier than us old farts, so there's that.
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Another perspective is this -- focus on changing people's minds rather than getting frustrated when they are indecisive or seem not to accept your advice immediately. And often, that means encouraging them to seek out experiences that teach them what they won't accept out of the start gate. Those experiences can garner deep commitment to the course of action you wanted them to take in the first place.
Example - My young daughter wanted to bring this heavy toy on a trip hike once. She would not listen when I said she would get tired of carrying it, and that I would end up carrying it. I knew it was coming.
She would not accept my advice. So, I said, fine, I want you to carry that around the house once. (we lived on a sloped hill). If you are happy with the idea after trying that out, and believe you can carry the toy all by yourself for the whole trip, then we can take it on the hike. She said "OK" and tried to walk around the house with the item. A few minutes later, this little girl, all huffy faced and out of breath came to the front door and said "I'm not taking it, it's too heavy to carry'". Problem solved.
Just for the record, a couple people have encouraged me to try out the smaller instruments, and some have also encouraged me to not move onto upright at all. So, the advice is not unanimous. The very fact that I'm thinking of not doing it, or renting a small one, or renting a big one, indicates that I AM listening and taking people's advice -- just not necessarily yours -- I'm not sure yet. .
However, I appreciate the change in the tone of your last post. I really do. I was expecting a flame post when I saw the alert and instead found a controlled reasoned argument. Thanks for that.
just go play some basses. you say your body has rejected the 3/4 size bass, but have you even been taught how to stand with the bass and hold it properly? this alone could cover several lessons as there are a few different ways to do it and each are significantly different. you will probably find a way that works for you. this is the reason there are a few different methods. off the top of my head, to the side of the bass, kind of almost behind it, the karr way, the rabbath way, sitting on a high stool, sitting on a low stool, sitting like a cello.... im not tall, 5'10" and when i have the enpin all the way in on one of my basses i really have to bend over to play it. you do know that the endpins are adjustable right?
I have traveled roughly the same road. As someone said above, it is a marathon, not a sprint. I would not go smaller than 3/4. If the instrument seems so big, consider a 3/4 with narrower "shoulders" like the Upton Bohemian. I strongly recommend Upton basses generally. I still have my first one from them, from 2009, and it's not the least bit "fragile." Last but not least, hate to say this but ... get a teacher. You can't teach yourself upright bass from bass guitar. Some things you will know, in terms of note choices and patterns, but how you actually play it does not translate from bass guitar. You need a teacher, at least for a while.
We're a little different on this side of the forum. We don't coddle so much and there's lots and lots of people who come here thinking that it's easy (or cheap). It's not. We play DB because we have a burning desire to. Otherwise there are easier and simpler (even more practical?) options out there. It's definitely a marathon.
I've come to this instrument having spent most of my life also playing various instruments - some fairly difficult (piano & jazz guitar namely) with a strong sense for body awareness from other disciplines and sports. Nothing prepared me for the double bass and it's the most physically demanding. Finding a form that is loud with good tone while keeping things where it's as little effort as possible takes a long time to figure out - even while having support from a teacher. I'm still figuring it out now after a decade of playing it and I don't expect to find it for some time more. Everything is a work in progress.
It's not so hard that you can't do it, but without proper guidance you make it quite an uphill battle needlessly. Damon will be pleased to know I'm eating my hat and going back to Simandl.
If you're going to go after a smaller instrument, choose something with a slightly smaller scale length (like 41") and a smaller body (5/8ths-ish). That way you aren't making any compromises but getting a slightly smaller physical bass. Again, if you don't have the $ or time to devote to it, I think you're just going to end up frustrated. Do it because you truly want to.
I've come to this instrument having spent most of my life also playing various instruments - some fairly difficult (piano & jazz guitar namely) with a strong sense for body awareness from other disciplines and sports. Nothing prepared me for the double bass and it's the most physically demanding. Finding a form that is loud with good tone while keeping things where it's as little effort as possible takes a long time to figure out - even while having support from a teacher. I'm still figuring it out now after a decade of playing it and I don't expect to find it for some time more. Everything is a work in progress.
It's not so hard that you can't do it, but without proper guidance you make it quite an uphill battle needlessly. Damon will be pleased to know I'm eating my hat and going back to Simandl.
If you're going to go after a smaller instrument, choose something with a slightly smaller scale length (like 41") and a smaller body (5/8ths-ish). That way you aren't making any compromises but getting a slightly smaller physical bass. Again, if you don't have the $ or time to devote to it, I think you're just going to end up frustrated. Do it because you truly want to.
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Hey Pau, welcome to the dark side! All I want to add here is jump in, brother! When you say focus is for champions, well, it's true, but we don't all have to be champions. Jaco has already lived, know what I mean? It's the journey, the new discoveries, that is the spice. I think renting a 3/4 and taking lessons immediately will answer 99% of your questions. Music, as you know, is only for the enthusiastically committed, and if the DB grabs you after a lesson or two, fantastic! If it doesn't, there are only about a million other instruments to try, and different things to do with your current electric. Let a teacher help you onto the path, then you'll know.
Enjoy!
p.s.: I don't think it will take you two years to be gig-ready.
Enjoy!
p.s.: I don't think it will take you two years to be gig-ready.
Indeed, IME, learning to play the URB requires a gifted, empathetic, qualified, competent teacher and that's not so true for some other instruments.
Over the years I've had several lessons (different teachers) in which the first 20 minutes or so involved how I was physically relating to the instrument in terms of posture, where it rested against me, endpin height etc. Embrace that it's not easy ... but it's so cool once you get going with it. Good teachers will call you out right away - that's how it goes. All good.
It is extremely unlikely that you have any "unique needs" for the upright bass, unless you are a dwarf, a giant, or have a significant physical disability.
Speaking personally, one of the most liberating factors in my middle aged period has been the recognition that I am in fact not all that unique or different from every other middle aged white male American out there. If you accept this, you will spend a lot less time beating your head against walls and searching out the "exact, perfect" this or that.
Just go out and rent a damn 3/4 bass and take some lessons from a qualified teacher using a standard teaching methodology. You are not so weird that this won't work for you. If, after a few months of giving it the old college try, it just isn't feeling happy, then stop.
Speaking personally, one of the most liberating factors in my middle aged period has been the recognition that I am in fact not all that unique or different from every other middle aged white male American out there. If you accept this, you will spend a lot less time beating your head against walls and searching out the "exact, perfect" this or that.
Just go out and rent a damn 3/4 bass and take some lessons from a qualified teacher using a standard teaching methodology. You are not so weird that this won't work for you. If, after a few months of giving it the old college try, it just isn't feeling happy, then stop.
