Ask around! Face-to-face networking is often the best way to find an instrument. Some people hoard them like cats. I know one player who has over a dozen uprights and is always happy to play "matchmaker" to connect students with basses. Maybe you can rent or borrow one from a local musician, until you have a little more experience and can make an informed purchase?
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Double Bass My unique needs on Upright -- advice wanted
- Thread starter PauFerro
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yes, I think I've decided to rent for a bit given the expense of the instrument, and the need to reach my own conclusion about scale. I may purchase a bridge pickup so at least I can test that aspect out. I can easily sell that without incurring major shipping costs. I am favoring a smaller instrument with strong amplification. I know some have indicated that anything short of a 3/4 is not adviseable, there is some evidence that fit is very important, and that the effect of a shorter scale is mostly on volume. Renting and testing amplification will help me understand whether that conclusion is for me.
Any reason why there's no mention of electric upright basses here? From my experience, an EUB could be a nice step into the DB world. You can get a good sounding one for a lot less than a good sounding DB. Just be careful to find one that's cut to feel like a real double bass (There are many that are meant to feel like an electric bass). you will likely be able to get the same gigs. And along the way, you can apply yourself to learn proper double bass technique.
EUB's are far more adjustable as well -- I can play mine pizzicato while sitting down in a chair!
After touring and gigging a few years with an EUB, I was able to go into the studio and comfortably record on a real double bass with very few issues.
EUB's are far more adjustable as well -- I can play mine pizzicato while sitting down in a chair!
After touring and gigging a few years with an EUB, I was able to go into the studio and comfortably record on a real double bass with very few issues.
not to go too far off topic but i totally believe that jaco quote. i live in nj and when i was young, before we all had AC, i woke up one morning and my fingerboard was sitting on the floor. the heat and humidity had turned the hide glue back to liquid. i know its rare, but it can happen. hide glue is mixed by the luthier and the fact that it can turn back to liquid is why its used, to facilitate repairs. i brought it back to my guy and he mixed a tougher batch. havent had a problem since, but i got AC that year too!
to the OP, go to a large bass shop and spend the day playing as many basses as you can. even if you have to take a trip to do so, it will be worth it for you.
You don't need a pickup and an amp to start practicing but what you will need is a bow.
When I was living on a boat that a 3/4 bass wouldn't fit comfortably into I did some serious investigation into a smaller instrument. I played several student basses and even talked to Seth Kimmel about building something. Sound and quality aside the real deal breaker for me was the fact that all factory built smaller instruments are made for children's hands. This might not seem like a big deal to an adult non-DB player who's used to the much thinner neck of a bass guitar but the mechanics of the two instruments have some fundamental differences. With a double bass it's essential to keep your left hand open in a smooth arc that maintains the structural integrity of an arch. If you don't your hand won't function efficiently and quickly fatigues and cramps. I have yet to find a 1/2 size or smaller bass I can play for more than a few minutes.
Pic #1 is the grip you'd use on a typical 3/4 instrument. Pic #2 is what a bass made for children's hands forces you into. The arch collapses at the first knuckle joint and you loose a ton of strength. By all means go play some small basses but be aware of this when you do. Even if you think you have small hands unless they're very literally the size of a 9 or 10 year old's it's not something you'll "get used to".
Pic #1 is the grip you'd use on a typical 3/4 instrument. Pic #2 is what a bass made for children's hands forces you into. The arch collapses at the first knuckle joint and you loose a ton of strength. By all means go play some small basses but be aware of this when you do. Even if you think you have small hands unless they're very literally the size of a 9 or 10 year old's it's not something you'll "get used to".
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Jaco's mom didn't work and his old man was a jazz drummer, so I don't see him having grown up with all the modern conveniences.
When the British Army commissioned basses for their military bands that would be stationed in tropical climates, the makers typically ran ebony pins through the top and back plates into the blocks. The pins prevented the plates from wandering away when the glue liquefied.
Consider that myth confirmed.
Pau, Shen makes a downsized bass with a carved top, willow ribs and plywood flat back. I've played one, and it should get you most of the way toward where you want to go for not too much money. I would not bother with a smaller instrument, even amplified. Look here:
Hybrid basses
Fragility: Double basses are not typically just falling apart the second you look at them. I had one do that, but there were a lot of other factors involved. A brief rundown of the fairly common concerns:
Let it live in your climate for a year: This is especially important with cheaper instruments not because of the bass being fragile, but because you want to be sure that it is well built. While you will likely encounter them on ebay for sure, even reputable shops that were trying to find something on the lower end of the market were buying really cheap instruments out of Asia, and many of them were coming from furniture companies that decided making instruments was a better economic idea. As such, many of those instruments were poorly constructed with wood that was not aged properly and while it might seem fine in the shop, within a year or so they started to fall apart. If it has lived in the shop for a year and not experienced those issues, or it did and the shop has fixed those issues, then you are safer than purchasing a brand new instrument and taking your chances that it will be ok. You typically can avoid a lot of that by purchasing from a violin family/bass shop as they tend to stand behind their instruments much more than a music store, but if you really feel the need to buy a double bass from Guitar Center, I would be really weary if it had a 2016 label in it. What are the issues you are trying to avoid?
Open seams: This is the most common issue/concern for double basses when they are exposed to changes in humidity. Essentially the instrument shrinks in low humidity and expands in high humidity. Hide glue is used because it was used traditionally, but also because we want to be able to take the instrument apart and put it back together again for repair purposes. If the bass has a big humidity shock sometimes a seam will open up as everything shifts, which could sort of be viewed as a fail safe; having a seam open is a more desirable outcome than a crack. If that ever happens, a trip to the shop with a bit of glue a few clamps, and some drying time takes care of an open seam, and your instrument is no different than it was before.
Cracks: A fairly common adage when it comes to double basses is that there are two types of basses; basses with cracks, and basses that haven't cracked yet. Most of the old Italian/English/other European countries' basses that have been around for hundreds of years have seen plenty of cracks, and they're still going. You want to avoid them in a newer instrument, and if the crack goes through the area where the soundpost is located on the top or the back, or along the bass bar on the top, they are costly to repair. If your instrument lives in your climate for a year or so and hasn't cracked, then there is a good possibility that it will be relatively ok. If you are bringing an instrument from a significantly different climate to yours, sometimes during the first month or two of that transition, or the first winter/summer when it experiences climate extremes, they crack. If it is a particularly bad one, located at the soundpost or bass bar, or on a cheap BSO, then you could have a situation where the cost of repairing the crack is more than the cost of the instrument, which is part of the reason why it is recommended that those instruments live in your climate for a year. If you maintain a relatively consistent humidity level year round you can reduce the risk of a crack happening, but there are basses that have lived in places with no climate control for years and survived just fine, and basses that have been babied from day one that happen to crack. It's part of owning this type of instrument but if they are repaired well, cracks aren't typically a huge issue.
Sunken tops: This is a particular concern on BSO's and cheap instruments. If they are not properly made, the top can sink. What that means is that the tension and pressure from the bridge pushes on the arch of the top of the instrument, and instead of standing up to it, the top "sinks" and becomes flat in that area. It is easiest to notice around the edges of the f holes. On a healthy top, both sides of the f holes will be on the same plane in the arch. On a sunken top, the outside edge of the f hole appears higher, because the middle of the instrument has been compressed. This is one of the "imploding" issues with cheap instruments, and you can't economically do much about it. On more expensive instruments it shouldn't be an issue, and if it is there are ways to correct it and reinforce the top, but it is a costly repair. Again, if the instrument survives the first year at tension without sinking then there is a good chance it will survive a few more, but that isn't always the case. If the soundpost falls, it is important to loosen the strings and remove the tension from the top to prevent this from happening.
Dings, scratches, etc.: Double basses are large. Regardless to how careful you are, sometimes you catch a door frame or something else unintentionally, and accidents happen. Some of those issues you live with, others you can have repaired. I purchased a new instrument and can still vividly remember the first traumatic experience when the finished was scratched. It involved my private teacher and a fork, and it took a long time for me to let that one go. Since then, even when taking very good care of the instrument, things happen. On older instruments, they call that "character". If the bass does not come with them already on it, most shops make "bumpers" for the treble edge of the instrument. They attach to the ribs and sit just slightly proud of the edge of the instrument so when you set it down on its side, the instrument rests on the bumpers and not on the floor, protecting the edge. It's a bit unreasonable to expect that your bass will never have anything happen to it, but they aren't falling apart all over the place.
Electric Uprights: These are another can of worms, and there is a separate section where they are discussed. The Coles notes version is that there are some that are very similar to electric basses and some that are closer to double basses in dimensions and neck shape/feel, but they are yet another fundamentally different instrument than double bass or electric bass. If I was going to make a guitar analogy, I would say that a double bass is an acoustic guitar, an electric bass is an electric guitar, and an EUB is a nylon string acoustic with a pickup in it. You can play "guitar" on all three much the same as you can play "bass" on all three, but they are different tools that can be more or less appropriate depending on the setting. EUB's shine in Latin jazz settings, but if you are working with a group that is looking for a "traditional" combo, they are not accepted in some jazz situations. They aren't taken seriously in classical music and you would never play one in an orchestra, but some of the ones designed with the bow in mind do have possibilities. I do not personally own one largely because the models I have played that I would be interested in owning aren't the cheap ones, but if you want to play double bass, the best instrument for the job is a double bass.
As far as brands go, it is mentioned in the beginner FAQ and other places that "brands" don't really mean as much in the double bass world. Shen tends to be one of the exceptions, because they are very consistent at producing good quality ply and hybrid basses at an affordable price. They have a dealer locator on their website that should help you out. Otherwise, you are best trying a bunch of instruments from a good shop, or if you are considering a private sale having the instrument looked at by a luthier to see if they notice any concerns that you did not before purchasing. Renting is also a great option if you aren't 100% committed to this yet, and depending on the shop, they may have a rent to own type program that you could take advantage of as well.
That's enough rambling for today. Happy hunting!
Let it live in your climate for a year: This is especially important with cheaper instruments not because of the bass being fragile, but because you want to be sure that it is well built. While you will likely encounter them on ebay for sure, even reputable shops that were trying to find something on the lower end of the market were buying really cheap instruments out of Asia, and many of them were coming from furniture companies that decided making instruments was a better economic idea. As such, many of those instruments were poorly constructed with wood that was not aged properly and while it might seem fine in the shop, within a year or so they started to fall apart. If it has lived in the shop for a year and not experienced those issues, or it did and the shop has fixed those issues, then you are safer than purchasing a brand new instrument and taking your chances that it will be ok. You typically can avoid a lot of that by purchasing from a violin family/bass shop as they tend to stand behind their instruments much more than a music store, but if you really feel the need to buy a double bass from Guitar Center, I would be really weary if it had a 2016 label in it. What are the issues you are trying to avoid?
Open seams: This is the most common issue/concern for double basses when they are exposed to changes in humidity. Essentially the instrument shrinks in low humidity and expands in high humidity. Hide glue is used because it was used traditionally, but also because we want to be able to take the instrument apart and put it back together again for repair purposes. If the bass has a big humidity shock sometimes a seam will open up as everything shifts, which could sort of be viewed as a fail safe; having a seam open is a more desirable outcome than a crack. If that ever happens, a trip to the shop with a bit of glue a few clamps, and some drying time takes care of an open seam, and your instrument is no different than it was before.
Cracks: A fairly common adage when it comes to double basses is that there are two types of basses; basses with cracks, and basses that haven't cracked yet. Most of the old Italian/English/other European countries' basses that have been around for hundreds of years have seen plenty of cracks, and they're still going. You want to avoid them in a newer instrument, and if the crack goes through the area where the soundpost is located on the top or the back, or along the bass bar on the top, they are costly to repair. If your instrument lives in your climate for a year or so and hasn't cracked, then there is a good possibility that it will be relatively ok. If you are bringing an instrument from a significantly different climate to yours, sometimes during the first month or two of that transition, or the first winter/summer when it experiences climate extremes, they crack. If it is a particularly bad one, located at the soundpost or bass bar, or on a cheap BSO, then you could have a situation where the cost of repairing the crack is more than the cost of the instrument, which is part of the reason why it is recommended that those instruments live in your climate for a year. If you maintain a relatively consistent humidity level year round you can reduce the risk of a crack happening, but there are basses that have lived in places with no climate control for years and survived just fine, and basses that have been babied from day one that happen to crack. It's part of owning this type of instrument but if they are repaired well, cracks aren't typically a huge issue.
Sunken tops: This is a particular concern on BSO's and cheap instruments. If they are not properly made, the top can sink. What that means is that the tension and pressure from the bridge pushes on the arch of the top of the instrument, and instead of standing up to it, the top "sinks" and becomes flat in that area. It is easiest to notice around the edges of the f holes. On a healthy top, both sides of the f holes will be on the same plane in the arch. On a sunken top, the outside edge of the f hole appears higher, because the middle of the instrument has been compressed. This is one of the "imploding" issues with cheap instruments, and you can't economically do much about it. On more expensive instruments it shouldn't be an issue, and if it is there are ways to correct it and reinforce the top, but it is a costly repair. Again, if the instrument survives the first year at tension without sinking then there is a good chance it will survive a few more, but that isn't always the case. If the soundpost falls, it is important to loosen the strings and remove the tension from the top to prevent this from happening.
Dings, scratches, etc.: Double basses are large. Regardless to how careful you are, sometimes you catch a door frame or something else unintentionally, and accidents happen. Some of those issues you live with, others you can have repaired. I purchased a new instrument and can still vividly remember the first traumatic experience when the finished was scratched. It involved my private teacher and a fork, and it took a long time for me to let that one go. Since then, even when taking very good care of the instrument, things happen. On older instruments, they call that "character". If the bass does not come with them already on it, most shops make "bumpers" for the treble edge of the instrument. They attach to the ribs and sit just slightly proud of the edge of the instrument so when you set it down on its side, the instrument rests on the bumpers and not on the floor, protecting the edge. It's a bit unreasonable to expect that your bass will never have anything happen to it, but they aren't falling apart all over the place.
Electric Uprights: These are another can of worms, and there is a separate section where they are discussed. The Coles notes version is that there are some that are very similar to electric basses and some that are closer to double basses in dimensions and neck shape/feel, but they are yet another fundamentally different instrument than double bass or electric bass. If I was going to make a guitar analogy, I would say that a double bass is an acoustic guitar, an electric bass is an electric guitar, and an EUB is a nylon string acoustic with a pickup in it. You can play "guitar" on all three much the same as you can play "bass" on all three, but they are different tools that can be more or less appropriate depending on the setting. EUB's shine in Latin jazz settings, but if you are working with a group that is looking for a "traditional" combo, they are not accepted in some jazz situations. They aren't taken seriously in classical music and you would never play one in an orchestra, but some of the ones designed with the bow in mind do have possibilities. I do not personally own one largely because the models I have played that I would be interested in owning aren't the cheap ones, but if you want to play double bass, the best instrument for the job is a double bass.
As far as brands go, it is mentioned in the beginner FAQ and other places that "brands" don't really mean as much in the double bass world. Shen tends to be one of the exceptions, because they are very consistent at producing good quality ply and hybrid basses at an affordable price. They have a dealer locator on their website that should help you out. Otherwise, you are best trying a bunch of instruments from a good shop, or if you are considering a private sale having the instrument looked at by a luthier to see if they notice any concerns that you did not before purchasing. Renting is also a great option if you aren't 100% committed to this yet, and depending on the shop, they may have a rent to own type program that you could take advantage of as well.
That's enough rambling for today. Happy hunting!
I am considering going with a smaller scale instrument for now. I know many will advise against this, but I have a few reasons for at least trying it out. I know from playing shorter instruments that they do take a hit in volume -- so having an pickup on the bridge is one way of assessing that aspect of the test...
A few people have said that it's better to straight to the upright, that EUB's aren't the same instrument, that they are considered inferior among jazz players...I like the idea of slow transition. I learn that way, in bits that eventually come together rather than in one blow out that leaves me exhausted and full of pain during the experience (mental pain from having to think and work so hard all at once).
My point was more along the line of you'll need to practice with a bow for many many hours to build hand strength, learn to shift, play in tune, you'll have to practice your right hand pizz technique for many hours (days/weeks/months) before you have any ability to play in a way that projects notes out of the bass. Regardless of the size of the instrument, you don't practice at home with an amp, it's just not how this works. And it is very unlikely that you'll drag the bass out to gig in the short term.
Thus far, the advice offered said everything I could think of, and, better (Mike) then I could have, but, now I gotta add my 2 cents.
Regarding size: there's a local pro URB player who's all of 5'4", and female, and she has no issue getting around on her 3/4 size bass. Granted, everyone is different, but it's unlikely that your height will be the reason you'd prefer a 5/8.
Regarding EUBs: again, as Mike said, they're different instruments and all sound differently than an URB. I have an Eminence and an NS Designs Omni bass. I keep them both for when I travel by plane. I like both of them for what they are and think they're both well made and a good value, but I rarely play them locally and when I go to jazz camp in the summer I really, really miss my URB. A few of them feel more like a URB, the Eminence in particular, but the Omni is more like a cross between a fretless BG and an upright.
Regarding size: there's a local pro URB player who's all of 5'4", and female, and she has no issue getting around on her 3/4 size bass. Granted, everyone is different, but it's unlikely that your height will be the reason you'd prefer a 5/8.
Regarding EUBs: again, as Mike said, they're different instruments and all sound differently than an URB. I have an Eminence and an NS Designs Omni bass. I keep them both for when I travel by plane. I like both of them for what they are and think they're both well made and a good value, but I rarely play them locally and when I go to jazz camp in the summer I really, really miss my URB. A few of them feel more like a URB, the Eminence in particular, but the Omni is more like a cross between a fretless BG and an upright.
Ok, you said you came here for advice from those that know what they are doing. As so many have on these forums, you are now fighting against that advice, when you admittedly don't know what you are doing. Time to get the bass you like and start playing!
I don't call it fighting the advice. I call it considering it in light of information none of you have -- my 50 years on the planet in my own body. Also, I have a private conversation going in which there was a divergent opinion from an experienced teacher that the bass should not be any larger than I think I need.
I was ready, before I started listeningposted in this thread, to just up and buy a 1/4 size instrument of the cheaper chinese kind to get started. That idea is gone now based on the feedback here, and I am planning to rent.test a couple sizes and see how it goes. I've even figured out where the Shen dealer is in my area of the world (thanks to this thread), and am thinking about making the long drive there to try out their instruments. So, I have not ignored advice by any means.
I haven't yet made a firm decision, and ultimately, it is my decision what to do with the advice. As much as I respect the advice of the people here (it's been great -- really great), I learned long time ago not to completely ignore my own instincts without a test either.
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Not to pile on here, but a pickup isn't going to make up for sonic qualities that are lacking from an upright bass in it's acoustic form. What I mean by that is, any characteristics that are inherent to the instrument will be there when you plug it in, only louder. That is true for good and bad characteristics. In my experience there has never been a magic bullet, EQ setting, preamp, or anything else that will significantly overcome any shortcomings of the instrument just because it's been amplified. If anything, I've experienced the opposite. The more that you try to "fix" the issue in one area/frequency/volume inequality/what have you....the more the dog begins to chase it's tail as other frequencies begin to be affected. A bridge wing piezo sends every thing to the amplifier, and I mean everything.
I'm going to repeat something I said earlier that I feel you may be looking past. Your bass guitar experience means little to nothing when it comes to upright. Comfort with a shorter scale on BG doesn't mean a darn thing in reference to double bass.
Your discussion here keeps trending towards someone who is looking for short cuts to proficiency on double bass. There aren't any.
Haha. Very nice analogy. I couldn't have said it better myself. You don't want to go cheap with uprights. And I would never buy an upright without playing it first, or have a very generous return policy. I would be willing to drive a great distance to find a good upright. 3/4 size fits most everybody, so start there and try a bunch of basses until you find something that sings to you.
I am wondering why you made this post.....you are going to do what you want despite what the others have said. why ask in the first place?
haven't you realized that the internet isn't a place where everyone agrees with you and are going to tell you what you want to hear?
these experienced players above are trying to help you.
help you save money, time, heartache and make playing double bass fun.
ignore the sage advice given and learn for yourself.....i wish you luck on your quest.
haven't you realized that the internet isn't a place where everyone agrees with you and are going to tell you what you want to hear?
these experienced players above are trying to help you.
help you save money, time, heartache and make playing double bass fun.
ignore the sage advice given and learn for yourself.....i wish you luck on your quest.
Considering this a bit more... there are definite advantages to picking up another instrument, but it also reduces the amount of time you can focus on your primary instrument. You might want to consider that factor in your calculus before you take the plunge. The URB is one of the more challenging instruments to learn to play well and you really gotta love the sound to suffer the years of effort required.
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